Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[StarMetal]

I thought I brought up breech seating as a good idea? Glad it pleased you and others Joe! Have you tried it by the way? It does work rather well if your breech seating tooling is sized correctly and CONCENTRIC. I suppose if I still shot in any shoots I would still do it... But it is SO inconvenient in the field where most of my load development goes these days.. I have another method almost as good. I have a .375 Winchester single shot. The groove diameter is .3755" I size 375449 boolits to .377". I usually cast out of wheel weights with tin upped to 2%. I cut a long throat in this barrel that mikes .3777" The boolit touches the lands with only 1/8" seated into the case! YES they are fragile and a pain in the field with all lube basically exposed as well but it is doable with care. I load them hot... probably about 40,000psi and they shoot! Do they experience longitudinal shortening as we have discussed?? I am rather certain they do! But they are held concentric by design! Your load may have the boolit shortening up too Joe. I think I've said more than once a load can shoot most excellently with this taking place!

I've attached Speer's take on this of what we speak. With jacketed no less! The jacket is the ONLY thing that kept deformation from going "wild" in the photo! The core material is 2 or 3% Sb I would imagine... 3150fps is faster than we shoot boolits.... well... at least most of us!

If your load is shooting great I'm happy for you Joe but it in no way proves shortening isn't taking place. Consider yourself blessed it is happening concentric and balanced if in fact it is happening.

Eutectic

After reading Larry Gibson post on how they would get short and thinking about it, I do believe they get short. Now I'm one of the largest fired bullet collectors you've ever known. A fascination habit carried over from my childhood. Take my 6.5 Grendel using that 140 Saeco. That bullet is dang near 3/4 bore rider. I've shot it to little over 2500 fps. That's about the limit for that small case especially in the AR15. I've recovered fired bullet and the only place there are land marks on the bore riding nose are just right there in front of the first bearing band. The marks go just a little ways up the nose...not far at all, be lucky to make 3/32th's of an inch. So it's squatting some, not a lot.

Yes I have breach seated bullets. In fact my 140 Saeco in my 6.5x54MS because that rifle has a god awful long freebore. The result were mediocre.

Joe

[swheeler]

Eutectic; That photo of the bullet looks like a LIFE RAFT, see the wakes and turbulence behind it.

[Eutectic]

Eutectic; That photo of the bullet looks like a LIFE RAFT, see the wakes and turbulence behind it.

That turbulence you see behind the bullet in this old spark photo is lessened with a boattail bullet thus improving the long range performance as a point of interest.

Eutectic

[swheeler]

That turbulence you see behind the bullet in this old spark photo is lessened with a boattail bullet thus improving the long range performance as a point of interest.

Eutectic

Almost would bet it could be lessened even more with a rebate boat tail bullet or maybe even a Brenneke torpedo tailed looking slug, whatever they call them.

[45 2.1]

How to determine what granular filler does in your particular cartridge:

• Take a funnel with about a 30 caliber hole in the spout and time how long it take to flow thru it for a standard volume (you determine what that volume is and use it for all filler tests). If it does not flow, take a poker and help it while timing it or note the difficulty in doing so. Record your results in a chart for your use.
• Any filler that flows thru the funnel will likely not increase the pressure a lot by bridging in a bottle neck case. Straight walled cases are a different story as they seldom have to big of pressure increase due to filler bridging.
• Any filler that wouldn’t flow thru the funnel will likely bridge in a bottle necked case and will have an effect on raising pressure according to how it compacts and flows thru the case neck. Fillers with larger grain sizes may bridge more and raise pressure faster.
• How rough or smooth a filler is determines how it acts under pressure. Fillers with a lubricant coating or that are smooth and round will have less effect on pressure than those that are irregularly shaped or that are rough in texture.
• Keep in mind you are still reducing cartridge case capacity anytime you are using filler. Data for the cartridge you’re using will probably be over pressure. Compare that data for a like caliber cartridge that has less capacity. The filler should occupy remaining space in the case regardless of the compression used.
• Fillers can act quite differently depending on the amount they are compressed. Rough non-flowing fillers especially.
• A lot of things have been used for fillers and there is quite a list of available fillers presently. Do you really want to run some of these thru your rifles bore? Some relatively soft fillers will polish the bore very bright and smooth which can be a good thing sometimes, BUT too much of a good thing can be bad carried to extremes. Rough fillers can have the opposite effect.
• Use good judgment here as guessing can sometimes give you a big surprise. Use of any filler will probably increase the cartridges pressure. Don’t add it as an afterthought. Work up your load starting at a reasonable starting point.

[243winxb]

CAUTION: The following post may include loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The castboolits.gunloads, nor the staff of assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. 38 year old Lyman data-129gr cast w/gas check bullet #266455 #2 alloy. IMR 4895 start- 23gr. Max is 31gr @2105fps 18" bbl .No filler needed. Redding http://www.redding-reloading.com/ makes custom BR bushing dies/seaters. Lyman "M" die. Need brass, plenty here. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...ber=1390109581 Making brass out of 30-06 to make tight necks? Not for the average guy, as neck turning might be needed. PLUS Huntington http://www.huntingtons.com/dies_caseform.html tells you NOT to do it.

The base diameter of this caliber(6.5mmx55) is much larger than the .30-06 or similar cases and therefore cannot be safely used for forming. Norma cases or ammunition in the respective caliber is recommend.

As far as killing water jugs or 1gal paint cans, did that with a 1903 Springfield (new GI Bbl.), cast bullets, flip up GI sights @300 yds. IMR 4895. And no i dont load the 6.5mm

[243winxb]

I like this post, direct and to the point.

There are no secrets, really. The rules apply to all guns, not just the Swede. The name of the game is to make the entire case fit the chamber, and make the boolit fit within the case neck absolutely concentric. Some custom chambers are tighter than spec, and some cases are thicker than spec. Either one of these situations cause problems that no one likes to talk about on a general purpose board because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing. In the military situation, the guns are sloppy enough to provide continuous fire in the most adverse conditions. That slop must be taken up entirely for the gun to shoot properly with any kind of lead projectile, and most especially when the boolit is long compared to the diameter. Therefore, standard cases cannot be used in this latter situation, like those used for commercial purposes, such as those designated by SAMMI. It is best to prepare cases from cases larger than spec, such as 30-06 cases which are on the fat side (military) for Swede military guns in particular. Neck turning would be required, and a total loaded round should hover in the 0.001 total clearance arena. In addition, the use of a slower than normal powder should be used which would allow the case to be filled to capacity so the boolit will be ejected as concentrically as possible into the grooves. ... felix

[mike in co]

[QUOTE=243winxb;767139]CAUTION: . Need brass, plenty here. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...ber=1390109581 Making brass out of 30-06 to make tight necks? Not for the average guy, as neck turning might be needed. PLUS Huntington http://www.huntingtons.com/dies_caseform.html tells you NOT to do it.

did you actually read WHY he used the '06 brass, and the cautions he listed ?



some time i think people just like to see thier names in print.


mike in co

[StarMetal]

How to determine what granular filler does in your particular cartridge:

• Take a funnel with about a 30 caliber hole in the spout and time how long it take to flow thru it for a standard volume (you determine what that volume is and use it for all filler tests). If it does not flow, take a poker and help it while timing it or note the difficulty in doing so. Record your results in a chart for your use.
• Any filler that flows thru the funnel will likely not increase the pressure a lot by bridging in a bottle neck case. Straight walled cases are a different story as they seldom have to big of pressure increase due to filler bridging.
• Any filler that wouldn’t flow thru the funnel will likely bridge in a bottle necked case and will have an effect on raising pressure according to how it compacts and flows thru the case neck. Fillers with larger grain sizes may bridge more and raise pressure faster.
• How rough or smooth a filler is determines how it acts under pressure. Fillers with a lubricant coating or that are smooth and round will have less effect on pressure than those that are irregularly shaped or that are rough in texture.
• Keep in mind you are still reducing cartridge case capacity anytime you are using filler. Data for the cartridge you’re using will probably be over pressure. Compare that data for a like caliber cartridge that has less capacity. The filler should occupy remaining space in the case regardless of the compression used.
• Fillers can act quite differently depending on the amount they are compressed. Rough non-flowing fillers especially.
• A lot of things have been used for fillers and there is quite a list of available fillers presently. Do you really want to run some of these thru your rifles bore? Some relatively soft fillers will polish the bore very bright and smooth which can be a good thing sometimes, BUT too much of a good thing can be bad carried to extremes. Rough fillers can have the opposite effect.
• Use good judgment here as guessing can sometimes give you a big surprise. Use of any filler will probably increase the cartridges pressure. Don’t add it as an afterthought. Work up your load starting at a reasonable starting point.

Well there you go guys....thanks 45 2.1. Now I know what he's talking about. Not to be arrogant or smug...some of you will not get that.

Joe

[StarMetal]

[QUOTE=mike in co;767201]

CAUTION: . Need brass, plenty here. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...ber=1390109581 Making brass out of 30-06 to make tight necks? Not for the average guy, as neck turning might be needed. PLUS Huntington http://www.huntingtons.com/dies_caseform.html tells you NOT to do it.

did you actually read WHY he used the '06 brass, and the cautions he listed ?



some time i think people just like to see thier names in print.


mike in co

Thanks Mike...but not to worry. Both myself, 45 2.1, and 44man (and others) can hit that milk jug with a revolver with open sights. My revolver being my Smith Model 25 45 Colt.

Joe

[swheeler]

"IMR 4895 start- 23gr. Max is 31gr @2105fps 18" bbl .No filler needed." by 243wxbr
Try that load in Swede and report back how it groups, get a big target.

[Larry Gibson]

Well there you go guys....thanks 45 2.1. Now I know what he's talking about. Not to be arrogant or smug...some of you will not get that.

Joe

Would be nice if you two would take the "guessing" out of all this and just name the filler you are using.

From the above description I've just wasted $38 and a weeks time getting a non-useable filler. It does not flow well at all and that information was not on the makers site.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

"IMR 4895 start- 23gr. Max is 31gr @2105fps 18" bbl .No filler needed." by 243wxbr
Try that load in Swede and report back how it groups, get a big target.

swheeler is quite correct; going well past the RPM threshold will eat that load's accuracy alive, been there, done that, several times and so have a great many others.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Assuming what can or can't be done because of a supposed unproved idea is basically a lack of good technique and assuming you know what is actually happening (which is problematical by the results that you have shown). If I named the filler, it still wouldn't do you any good because of your technique. Several people who actually know the filler and method used couldn't make it work their way, until they followed the directions I gave. Several fillers can be used to gain HV and accuracy, the technique needs to be adjusted for each though because they each react differently. You might actually have the right filler, give them a try. Felix posted an excellent synopsis of what the situation is, read it for enlightenment.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

Thank you for responding....finally. I have been in contact with a couple of the "several people" who know. I have the filler and am following your directions to the "T". Yes felix is right, there are no "secrets". I do believe I and others have been telling you that for some time.

I'm sure if I succeed you will take all of the credit and if I fail you will proffer some excuse such as "technique" for for the reason. It seems as if you are already seemingly doing that. Reminds me of witch doctors and medicine men making warriors imune to bullets. They gave the magic potions or spells but always had that caveat; don't drink , don't fornicate or don't be afraid. Then when all the warriors were killed by bullets the witch doctor could say; they must have drank, fornicated or were afraid. Who is to argue, eh?

At any rate this old warrior ain't afraid (not admitting to anything about the other two ) to run the test. As the Mex M98 SR with Swede M38 6.5 barrel on it is all hooked up to the M43 Oehler PBL we shall also have velocity and a lot of pressure data to look at. My first test will be with the 2 powders starmetal said he used. The cases are as discussed and of which I mention having done for years in the Cast Pics article. Should prove interesting, just waiting for the rain to stop.

All that aside I really do appreciate your assistance, I think we all do. With all of us working together on projects such as this and sharing information we can advance our knowledge of cast bullets and shooting them. I would ask that you take starmetlal up on his offer to write the "how to's" of what you do for all of us.

Larry Gibson

[Russel Nash]

So this whole thread has been about someone's super secret squirrel use of filler in a rifle case to boost velocity?



Would somebody please send me a PM with the secret handshake or decoder ring?

[Bass Ackward]

Sometimes it is best to go away and then come back to get the best impression. And this is my last word because this is supposed to be a narrow thread.

Filler is NOT a cure all. And it will work less or not at all depending upon if you understand why you are using it.

I would say that most people have trouble determining the "beginning" powder speed to try. I NEVER found HV accuracy in any cartridge with a powder faster than RL15. Not that I didn't try, but faster powders are like smaller case capacities, they destabilize bore conditions faster than larger case capacities and slower powders do. In other words, accuracy windows are smaller, they are much more finicky, and come with a bigger RPM monster at lower levels. Or fewer shots.

So filler will only be effective if you let it be. My formula for determining powder speed is the powder that produces the highest velocity with a jacketed bullet of the same bullet weight minus two IMR powder classes. If that jacketed powder is 4064 , then the powder speed ceiling is 4350. The world is open to you if you stay below 4350. And a general rule is to stay away from balls at these really low pressures.

Now I understand this establishes limits for allot of calibers. If your caliber or barrel length will not permit the velocity level that you crave with the proper speed powder, then you either need a lighter bullet, lower your expectations, or a different gun. You will only ever achieve marginal results if you have to push the pressure curve.

[Larry Gibson]

I concur with Bass as that has been my finding throughout the years also.

I'll add just one thing; that is, with powders at or slower than 4895/RL15, if the powder is below 85% loading density (to base of cartridge neck, not the case mouth) then a filler most often (not always but most often) improves ignition consistency. That isn't saying that the filler always increases accuracy either but most often it does.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Sometimes it is best to go away and then come back to get the best impression. And this is my last word because this is supposed to be a narrow thread.

Filler is NOT a cure all. And it will work less or not at all depending upon if you understand why you are using it.

I would say that most people have trouble determining the "beginning" powder speed to try. I NEVER found HV accuracy in any cartridge with a powder faster than RL15. Not that I didn't try, but faster powders are like smaller case capacities, they destabilize bore conditions faster than larger case capacities and slower powders do. In other words, accuracy windows are smaller, they are much more finicky, and come with a bigger RPM monster at lower levels. Or fewer shots.

So filler will only be effective if you let it be. My formula for determining powder speed is the powder that produces the highest velocity with a jacketed bullet of the same bullet weight minus two IMR powder classes. If that jacketed powder is 4064 , then the powder speed ceiling is 4350. The world is open to you if you stay below 4350. And a general rule is to stay away from balls at these really low pressures.

Now I understand this establishes limits for allot of calibers. If your caliber or barrel length will not permit the velocity level that you crave with the proper speed powder, then you either need a lighter bullet, lower your expectations, or a different gun. You will only ever achieve marginal results if you have to push the pressure curve.

John,

Maybe you should have tried the faster powders. My 6.5 Grendel reaches HV accuracy with 4198 and that 6.5x54MS done it with 4895. So I don't concur with you on that point. I might add you're off base on what you said of the ball powders.

There is no gaurantee to accuracy even if we are discussing jacketed bullets because each gun is a law into itself.

Joe

[StarMetal]

So this whole thread has been about someone's super secret squirrel use of filler in a rifle case to boost velocity?



Would somebody please send me a PM with the secret handshake or decoder ring?

Rus,

It's more then just the filler....haven't you noticed, for example, using the 06 brass for thicker tunable necks? So filler, powder, thicker case necks, alloy....and gee probably more.

Joe
P.S. Rus ship 10 UPC symbols from Kelloggs Corn Flake boxes to
me for your filler decoder ring.