Nope not so. I purchased A S & W model 610..... 6 !/2 inch barrel for myself last fall and you don't have to even use the moon clips at all for the 10mm ammo. just for the 40 caliber stuff
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Nope not so. I purchased A S & W model 610..... 6 !/2 inch barrel for myself last fall and you don't have to even use the moon clips at all for the 10mm ammo. just for the 40 caliber stuff
The better question is 45 vs 10mm. If Browning had invented the 10mm, and it had been used in the 1911 and all the 45ACP firearms of today. And someone tried to introduce the 45ACP, 45 Super/Rowland, 400 Corbon in the 80's? How popular would 45 be as a semiauto handgun cartridge, today?
History basically answered that around 1905. The 40/41/10mm round JMB was working lost out and became nothing more than a foot note in history.Originally Posted by gloob
Same for the .38-40 WCF. It was around a long time before the 45ACP and 10mm auto. The .38-40 WCF is a 40cal/10mm. It was not nearly as popular as the 44/40 or the 45 Colt.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...y-performance/
JMB designed the 45 ACP to meet the requirements of the military. They were not interest in a 40 Cal or a 41 Cal.
https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/relo...ensable-45-acp
Largely as a result of the Philippine experience and the results of the Thompson-LaGarde testing of 1904, the US Army and the US Cavalry decided that a minimum of .45 caliber would be required for any new military handgun.
At the time, Colt and John Browning were working on a .41 caliber cartridge for Browning's newly designed pistol. They then modified both the pistol and cartridge resulting in the Model 1905 pistol and the new .45 ACP cartridge.
The speedy little 38 Super introduced in 1929 didn't fair much better.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-super-38/
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/38-super/
Last edited by M-Tecs; 12-08-2023 at 05:39 AM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
10MM is about a 357
10MM Mag is about 41 mag
I’m reaming out my 10MM single six for 10MM Mag
As you folks with S&W 610 owners can do. Or buy a 41……..
A bench rest shooting friend had a S&W 610 for a while. He sold it because it was so heavy. But, he remarked that it was the most accurate pistol he had ever owned. M57's are pretty well regarded it that department as well. Same friend also had a "Friday" M57, so was never able to honestly compare the two calibers. The frame had never been tapped for the rear sight screw, among other problems. Living east of the Mississippi, power isn't too much of a factor if the caliber is over 40.
45 won partly due to the propellant and bullet technology of the time. Maybe it still has advantages in military use due to Hague convention.
If you can use modern powder and bullets, can a 45 ACP do anything significantly better than 10mm other than reduce capacity by 1-2 rounds? If I could magically transform all my 45ACP cases into 10mm, I might never load 45 ACP again. The main thing I dislike about shooting 10mm is losing cases.
I suppose the 45ACP has advantage for subsonic silencer application. But if it weren't for history and availability, I think 10mm would be more popular than 45ACP. Even if it were downloaded a little. You could say a 45ACP is a downloaded Rowland.
As a historical side note about efforts to make a zippier .45 cartridge, I bring you the .45 Remington-Thompson: A 250 grain bullet at 1,450 fps, designed for the Thompson submachine gun in order to make it a longer range weapon, closer to a BAR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Remington–Thompson
Also, I am firmly in the camp of counting the first shot being the most important one, not the 16th shot.
History and consumer choices disagree with you. The LE dropped the 10mm auto. mostly due to recoil. The 40 S&W was to be the replacement, but the 40 S&W has become mostly a footnote in history. Same for the 41 Mag. The 10mm/40cal/41cal mostly have not been very popular with US consumers. The 10MM Auto was heading that direction until the hunting crowd jumped on the bandwagon.
I have several 6" 1911's in 10mm auto. They make an outstanding platform for hunting deer sized game. For a carry gun the modern 9mm bullets make it a better choice for me. For stopping large dangerous animals like grizzly bears my FNX-45 Tactical .460 Rowland Conversion with it's 15 plus 1 capacity leaves the 10mm auto in the dust.
The 45 ACP predates the 460 Rowland by 70 plus years. The 45 ACP is not a downloaded 460 Rowland any more than a 38 special is a downloaded 357 Mag or the 44 Special is a downloaded 44 Mag.
As bowfin pointed out the closest historical relative to the 460 Rowland is the .45 Remington-Thompson.
https://cartridgecollector.net/cartr...n-thompson-mg/
Last edited by M-Tecs; 12-08-2023 at 09:44 PM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Linebaugh use to offer a 38-40 with an oversized cylinder. 1800fps from a 6" barrel with 180gr and 1600fps with 200gr.
The government agencies that tried and dropped 10mm switch didn't switch to 45ACP, though. Most of them went to 9mm or 40SW in smaller guns. There are plenty of people and agencies who choose 45ACP, but this isn't based on only what's best.
I choose 44mag over 41mag, simply due to 44 being more common and nearly no functional difference. If they were equally common, I would probably choose 41 for better BC.
I used to at least like 45ACP because it shot clean and accurately with my cast bullets. Even that reason is gone. It was trickier, but I figured out how to do that in all my calibers.
41 mag and 10mm were just ahead of their time. With modern propellant and bullets, they are "better" than 44 mag and 45ACP.
A real footnote in history is the 45GAP. Made so it will fit in the 9mm size handguns and equal the ballistics and bullets of the 45ACP.
40SW will still be popular and common when we're all gone.
The same modern propellants and bullets also improve the 44 Mag and the 45 ACP.
I can't speak for all area's but trade in or sale value of 40 S&W's are 20% to 25% less than the same model in a different caliber in this area. After I retired, I worked 3 1/2 years part time at a local Gunshop. Before the Floyd riots, they stopped taking in 40 S&W due to not being able to sell them.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Modern propellant and bullets improve the 45ACP to the point you need a compensator or design a completely new gun to shoot it, though. Or GAP it to make it smaller and still perform the same, but this isn't very popular due to capacity.
The 45-70 is great if all you have is soft lead and pan lube, but we have rifles that can get the same jobs done with less recoil and longer range before the target moves away, if you use modern jacketed bullets or use different alloys, coatings, and gas checks.
Like the 38 special case at original velocity is great if you need to cram it full of black powder. Today we can beat that in a tiny 9mm case.
Between 41 and 44, most of these revolvers are built on the same frames. If you want to hot rod, the 41 will have thicker cylinder walls. A 300 grain bullet might be better for some things, but I think it's almost splitting hairs. Same with 45ACP and 10mm, if you reload. But here, you have a real mag capacity difference.
Maybe soon in the future, we can get 10mm performance out of 40SW case capacity and OAL. Some reloaders have maybe even gone there, already. But I bet their cases don't last very long.
Last edited by gloob; 12-09-2023 at 08:15 PM.
That is not how SAAMI spec ammo works.
Please provide some examples any factory 45 ACP or 45 ACP plus P ammo requiring a compensator or design a completely new gun to shoot it though?????
In the 1911 ramped barrels are better for higher pressure rounds but they still shot 45 Super in standard unramped barrels without issues. The 460 Rowland's comp is solely for recoil reduction.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
I didn't mean sticking to SAAMI spec, no.
Rowland goes beyond 10mm. The comp in a 460 Rowland reduces recoil. But if you tried to just put stiffer spring in a 1911 and shoot Rowland levels while taking pain killers, you may have other problems than higher recoil. You may get sticky or failed extraction, because the case is still adhered to the chamber during extraction. You may have to replace the mainspring very often. You might wear out or crack the frame sooner.
But if you went a little beyond SAAMI because you have a modern pistol that has good chamber support and you know what you're doing, you might get similar performance to 10mm, without having to change much in a modern 45ACP pistol. Just lose some mag capacity.
Or you could download a 10mm a little and get similar performance to 45ACP and gain capacity. Or you could load it full tilt and not have to keep your ammo specially marked as "for x gun only."
Semiauto handguns are recoil-operated. Regardless of SAAMI pressure specs, the amount of recoil that the ammunition produces has to remain within a certain range, or you have to make changes like adding compensators or heavier slides. At the upper end, you can get more energy and performance by going faster with a slightly lighter bullet. I.e. skinnier 160-200 grain 10mm vs fatter 185-230 grain 45ACP. You can shoot even lighter bullets in a 45, but if you load them to 10mm level, you're shooting a low sectional density varmint grenade that neither penetrates like a pistol bullet nor produces the damage of a rifle bullet.
Last edited by gloob; 12-09-2023 at 09:37 PM.
Hot rodding a semi auto is a fools errand. I have a friend with half a Joker's smile from eating a slide to prove it.
As to the OP. The .41 revolver cartridge, I know exactly zero about. With that said. The nod goes to the dedicated revolver round.
There are a few fools careful enough to create things like 460 Rowland without hurting themselves. You'd be a fool to try to shoot 460 Rowland without the compensator.
The barrel or chamber on a semiauto handgun is never the first thing to fail. It's the slide moving too fast. That can cause failures to extract as well as damage the gun over time, possibly enough to release the slide. Or it's the brass blowing out and resulting in k'B and rapid disassembly of the gun.
I'm too lazy to hot rod. I don't want to separate and inspect brass that closely.
Book max standard pressure 230 gr with Power Pistol will go over 1000 fps with a lead bullet. Bump it up a few tenths to +p and you are in Super territory for sure. Same thing with 200 gr lead and Power Pistol/ BE-86 - standard pressure will get that 200 gr going at 1050 fps and a +p gets them to 1100+ fps. Any more power than this and you will want a compensator to control slide speeds.
My 1911 is set up for 45 Super but I just load ACP cases with 200-265 gr lead bullets with full charges of Power Pistol. 23k PSI ACP with lead bullets completely equals the 30k PSI Super with jacketed bullets. 23k PSI with any of the slower powders and lead bullets will beat your gun to DEATH if it isn't completely set up for Super, and if you want to even use mid-range Super data with lead bullets you need the comp along with the firing pin stop, recoil spring, hammer spring, etc.
You need the comp after about 260 power factor because heavy springs alone will give you too much slide velocity on the closing stroke. The comp is a weight plus it has thrust, both things make it delay unlocking. When the 1911 starts to move backwards and still has pressure from running abnormally slow powder such as Blue Dot or AA#9 you will blow cases. Without the comp your slide will open so fast that your magazine can't keep up and it won't chamber a round, which really peens the barrel hood. You will batter your barrel hood from violently chambering the rounds and slamming closed, batter the linkage and your pin hole will beat itself out of round. A comp and 20# recoil spring is infinitely easier on the gun than running a 28# recoil spring and the comped gun will show much less metal peening after 500 rounds. You can run 260-300 power factor in an un-comped gun but you will see peening on the barrel hood, linkage and frame within a few hundred rounds.
Edit: And a little stirring of the pot: When considering safe pressures using optimal powders for each different cartridge -if you make a direct comparison of 200-230 gr weights with lead bullets you will find that 45 ACP +P can equal or exceed 10 mm velocities. If you want to BARELY get your toe over the line into 45 super pressures, such as 25k PSI the 45 leaves it in the dust. Hard to argue with a 255 at 1100 fps or a 230 at 1200 fps. If you wanna run full power Supers with lead there is no comparison. 230 @ 1300 fps for the lead super and 220 at 1100 fps from the 10mm.
5" 10mm is weaker than a 4" 357 with any given bullet weight. 4" 357 can shoot a 180 at 1400 fps with Lil' Gun. Go straight from 9 to 45 - skip the 10.
Last edited by mnewcomb59; 12-10-2023 at 08:51 PM.
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