40 cal from 9mm easiest by far and cheap!

[b2riesel]

Today I Chrony'd some hot loads and boy was I surprised. I was Shooting my Smith & Wesson M&P 40 cal.... 188 grain jhp's with The BTSniper notch die. Now I don't know how to accurately measure the ogive and I know some people have a more missile like nose on their 9mm to 40 cal boolits than I do...mine I decided on a blockier design with a deeper and wider hollow point...with what I call a medium depth notch....so think of the Hornady XTP depth notch but with the lead extending to the very edge of the brass and making a squarish meplat.

So I load some WCC stamped 40 brass with 5.5grains of Bullseye which I worked up from 4.9 grains...which the Never Exceed listing in a few books was 5.4 grains of Bullseye. At 5.4 grains on a 190 grain jacketed bullet....should be about 955 feet per second or so. However, mine at 5.5 were pushing 1020 fps with rarely more than 1fps deviation after more than 100 rounds down range. My boolits were very consistent in both velocity and accuracy with some silly tight groupings at 50 yards. M&P was fired from a vice..since it isn't my Chrony.

Chrony was set at 15 feet. Conditions were a beautiful 90F with no wind and no clouds.

[BT Sniper]

Awesome!

My go to load as been 5.0 grains of W231. Seemed to run around 950-1000 FPS as I recall. I posted it here somewhere.

Good shooting

BT

[BT Sniper]

Found the link to some load data for the 40cal from 9mm bullets.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=83538

BT

[b2riesel]

It seems the people in that thread may have not been as precise in loading as I am. I weighed and sorted all my brass...used the same headstamp...weighed each boolit...and used the same weight...same head stamp and all with primers....all with the same notch depth and meplat.

I weighed each charge by hand to as exact as I can....all seated to the exact depth...I'm thinking I got a really good seal inside my barrel...I was shooting some really flat trajectories. The boolits don't seem to rise that much after the first 25 yards like some bullets do. I think that this attention to detail plus trimming the meplat so they are all as exact as I can make them....gives my deviation of FPS much lower spread than the data I saw on that link.

Now, when it comes to blasting ammo...I'll use the progressive and pump that stuff out...but for testing data...I'll be really detailed and exact as much as I can.

[BulletFactory]

Isnt the brass too hard on the grooves though?

[sargenv]

Montana Gold uses "cartridge brass" for all of it's jackets... so I'd have to say "Nope".

[BT Sniper]

New die and bullets are ready. Pics will be posted soon!

BT

[Stephen Cohen]

As I have said before, Sir you have tallent. Here in the land of Ausstralia such tallent is frowned upon. Thank god for America.

[BT Sniper]

Thanks

Here is my latest work and 40 cal one step die offer.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=118083

BT

[BT Sniper]

To those of you with this new 40 cal die on order I experienced a delay with the base punches. I took care of the problem and I'll have the base punches this week and expect to ship all 40 cal orders with luck by the end of next week.

Sorry for the delay and thanks for your patience, I'll certainly make your short wait worth your while.

Good Shooting,

BT

[DDriller]

Isnt the brass too hard on the grooves though?

Brass is annealed making it soft.

[OBIII]

Does anybody have, or know of, a chart that details what brass can be used to swage what bullet? If anyone has one, it might make a good sticky for this section.

[DukeInFlorida]

9mm brass, trimmed to .380 auto length, using a 105 grain 380 auto cast bullet as a core, yields a 165 grain .40 bullet.

380 auto brass can also be used directly, per above, but is harder to come by.

A regular 9mm case, with a 124 grain cast core will yield a 187 grain .40 bullet. A bit long and heavy for my liking. I prefer the first version.

-------------------

A .40 s&w case, with a cast 165 grain .40 bullet as a core, will yield a 250 grain .44 magnum bullet. That's a perfect size for .44 mag.

[BT Sniper]

Here is a couple links. Older posts and have since probably added severial more to the list but it should be a good start. Don't forget....anything is possible!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=60307

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=46614

[PhilOhio]

Hi guys,

I've been sporadically following the site for a few years, and stumbled across this thread while trying to find .40 jackets. I've been swaging for about 30 years, but never .40 caliber. It seems the people who make them have got things cornered and have priced me out of the market. But I have a ton of empty 9mm cases, a small lathe, milling machine, and I like to be creative...and learn...per BT Sniper's signature line.

So after absorbing these threads, I prevailed upon him to sell me his one-step setup, coming in a couple weeks. Meantime, I couldn't wait, so I made myself a core seat die and, today, a point forming die...still being refined.

What precipitated this exercise was the ordering of a brand new EAA (Tanfoglio) Witness in 10mm, after researching all the alternatives. I'm totally pleased with it, and see it will need an LPA adjustable rear sight, to bring out its accuracy potential.

But I want velocity, or else, why have a 10mm? That means jacketed boolits.

For those of you shooting these in .40 S&W, it's probably overkill. Up to at least 1150 FPS, you don't need to worry about leading, as long as you use wheel weights or Lyman #2 alloy and use a good lube. Anything with Alox equivalent in it will safely get you well above 1150. But I want 1300 even without Alox, so I need jackets and controlled expansion.

This is a work in progress, but I thought I'd offer a couple suggestions/observations, vis a vis what I have learned so far.

(1) There is a length/sectional density limitation with the 9mm/40 jacket. To seat the bullet within maximum overall length limits, you have to either go with a low powder charge or compress it, which I avoid. So you need to trim off the 9mm rim and groove part. The easiest way is with a 3-jaw Jacobs chuck on a 6" bench top lathe. Do it before annealing, when the brass if moderately hard, to avoid distortion when clamping. Eyeball it with your cutter to take all of the groove. That should leave anough brass in the base. Don't worry about anything left of the primer pocket. And you can do this with a Harbor Freight saw, drill press chuck, or anything similar. Just so it's fast and easy.

(2) In making the point forming part of the one-step, or any point forming die for this setup, go for a radius that allows the case mouth to roll over. We need to shorten the OAL as much as possible, to keep sectional density up and OAL down. That's to maximumize powder capacity. There's no point (no pun intended) in having a beautiful jacketed boolit that can only be driven at 800 FPS. You can also trim or cut the mouth, to shorten OAL.

(3) My advice is to not waste these fine boolits on low velocity loads, below 1000 FPS. These are serious, high performance boolits. Conserve them and make them carefully.

(4) This project is about economy. I've found that good 'ol auto parts store STP is a great lube for case sizing and bullet swaging. Smear it on an old fashioned stamp pad, if you can find one, and roll your cases/jackets on that. But of course, don't overdo it, or you will get wrinkles. One plastic bottle of STP will last a lifetime.

(5) Hollow points and jacket tip scoring look neat, but they are completely unnecessary if you can make this bullet as short as possible, to keep powder charge up, without exceeding overall length or compressing powder. Keep it short and fast. Forget about pretty. And shorter means better sectional density, retained velocity, and flatter trajectory. With a fast .40, you don't have to give a second's thought to scored jackets or hollow points. That thing is opening up right now, no matter what.

(6) Seven degrees seems to be a good compromise angle for the nose, if you use a truncated cone configuration. That's close to what seems to be used for most SWC boolits. I tried 10 degrees, and it didn't put quite enough lead out front. And these bullets need to be seated right out to the maximum OAL limit; again, because of powder capacity. We need all the design help we can get, to use 9mm hulls for .40 S&W. Seven degree noses will feed fine in most contemporary semiautos, including my Tanfoglio and 3rd generation Smiths. Five degrees might be pushing it, for feed reliability. That starts looking like a revolver wad cutter.

(7) As finances permit, consider investing in a couple basic adjustable core molds. They make life much easier. I have three of these, four cavities each, to cast core diameters of 1/4", 5/16", and 3/16". These cover boolits of about any weight in .22 to .45. You can tailor the boolit to whatever you want, without worrying about trimming and fiddling with whatever some commercial mold drops, and maybe adding little pieces of lead. And then there are core swaging dies, if we want to get really fanatical on accuracy. For this exercise they are not necessary. I don't want to scare anybody away. It can be an expensive, slippery slope. I surrendered long ago.

It's all about fun, and it looks like everybody here is having it. And I've enjoyed reading all your posts and and pictures on this subject.

[PhilOhio]

The mailman brought my 9mm/.40 One Step die from BT Sniper this noon, and I quickly made up some boolits for testing tomorrow, as I had 100+ cores seated in annealed 9mm cases. I learned a lot in 1/2 day, and can offer some suggestions.

On a hunch, I took a look at my CH4D .45 ACP blank loading die set and discovered a most amazing thing. Their 6-point star crimp is formed by a hardened sliding piece which fits inside a die body. The star piece is exactly the same diameter, .560", as what Lee uses to flare the case in their .40 S&W powder drop die.

So to make your own boolit nose scoring die, all you have to do is temporarily replace the Lee mouth flaring piece with this star piece (which you can probably buy separately from CH4D), make and insert a .560" x 3/4" aluminum or steel spacer behind it, screw in the top piece, and you have your boolit nose scoring die. Then the method is:

(1) Insert your annealed case in a standard 9mm shell holder, with lead 120 gr. bullet fully inserted nose down, and adjust the nose scoring die to close the crimp about 1/2 way.

(2) Finish the boolit the usual way, in your BT Sniper One Step die.

I did the whole thing slightly different from BT's one-step method because I wanted a slightly different result. I'm only using these boolits with maximum 10mm loads, where velocity is such that hollow pointing is irrelevant. So I made a flat nosed ejector punch for his die, which gives me no hollow point. And I'm a believer in seating cores first, although yes, you can probably get by without it. So I made a core seating die. If you don't roll your own, I recommend you buy one from BT. So here's how I then make the boolit.

(1) I anneal the 9mm cases, but don't saw off or lathe cut the rims at this point.

(2) Use a conventional core seating die to fully upset the core and bring OD up to .400". Rim is still on.

(3) Using a 9mm shell holder, to hold the half formed boolit, and the scoring die described above, I apply a 1/2 crimp to the nose.

(4) Using BT's die, I form the bullet with a flat nose.

(5) I chuck each almost finished bullet in a 3-jaw Jacobs chuck on my 6" bench top lathe and, using a 1/32" cuttoff cutter I made, I remove the rim, leaving no groove. You can tighten the chuck firmly enough that the boolit will not slip and will not be defaced, if your cutter is sharp, correcty positioned, and you are slow and steady with the feed. It takes about 15 seconds.

The rims really have to come off, or you have little room for powder in even a big 10mm case. With rims removed, the bullet is just under .600" high and weighs about 165 grains. Then there is just enough room for 8 grains of Unique which, with a 180 gr. boolit, is a maximum 10mm load for that powder and yields about 1150 FPS. Pretty respectable. I'm hoping to do a bit better than that, using other powders and possible a lighter core and trimmed case, giving shorter OAL.

For those who don't have the CH4D .45 ACP blank die, you really need to get one. (Or buy just the star piece.) You can have a lot of fun with it. The star piece is self centering. So I use the die to star crimp everything from .223 blanks (shooting golf balls half way across a small lake) to .45 ACP, for a Thompson. And I just found a new use for the die.

Yes, I know, getting anything from CH4D takes time. But it is usually worth it.

And thanks much, BT. It's a nice die. Separate PM coming to you.

[BT Sniper]

Your welcome and thanks for the compliments. It sounds like you have things all figured out. Let me know if you need any help. Do keep us posted with your results.

Only thing I would suggest is that with core seat dies you should look for a diameter slightly smaller then final bullet diameter. Anything from .0005 to .005 just so long as it is slightly smaller then final bullet diameter.

Good shooting and Swage On!

BT

[OBIII]

BT,
Thanks for the links. I will add them to my accumulation.
OB

[SSGOldfart]

Now lets see if I can post a video or at least a link to it.

Good shooting,

BT Sniper



WOW this might work. We shall see.

http://s636.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=P1020390.flv

what happened to the video???????????????????????????/

[BT Sniper]

http://s636.photobucket.com/albums/u...afilter=videos

Here is the link.

Don't know what happened to the original video link.

BT