Blackhorn 209 and saboted bullet test results

[StarMetal]

Well my BP cannon has a 1/8 touch hole for cannon fuse, and a LOT of gas comes out of that hole .

Bill

True...but you're not holding that near your face either.

Joe

[mooman76]

Well my BP cannon has a 1/8 touch hole for cannon fuse, and a LOT of gas comes out of that hole .

Bill

Sure but are you sticking your face down by the touch hole when you light it?

[Willbird]

True...but you're not holding that near your face either.

Joe

I'm not saying it is a good thing, or in any way endorsing using one, just commenting that an 1/8 flash holes allows a lot of gas out.

[frontier gander]

by 1/8" hole in the Breech plug i do believe hes talking about the hole that the primers SITS inside of.

[Willbird]

Nope, that is clearly bigger than 1/8" .

Bill

[StarMetal]

Nope, that is clearly bigger than 1/8" .

Bill

Bill,

I'm a little confused about what 1/8 in hole he's talking about. A 209 primer clearly is much much larger then that.

Joe

[Willbird]

Bill,

I'm a little confused about what 1/8 in hole he's talking about. A 209 primer clearly is much much larger then that.

Joe

I'm guessing that the 1/8 hole is in maybe a CVA rifle ?? And it's flash passage is 1/8" for most of the way, and tiny at the end the same way most are. However in my rifle the larger portion is clearly not 1/8"....it is smaller...

Bill

[Underclocked]

NO! The hole is actually smaller on a CVA (3mm vs 1/8"). Look down at the primer pocket ... see the hole that is just below the primer pocket which is the channel that leads toward the tiny hole at the nose of the plug. THAT is the channel I'm referring to and you guys are stubborn as rocks.

Last I knew the channel I refer to and the plug for an Omega is identical to the one used on a standard Encore.



Does that look like your plug?

[StarMetal]

NO! The hole is actually smaller on a CVA (3mm vs 1/8"). Look down at the primer pocket ... see the hole that is just below the primer pocket which is the channel that leads toward the tiny hole at the nose of the plug. THAT is the channel I'm referring to and you guys are stubborn as rocks.

Last I knew the channel I refer to and the plug for an Omega is identical to the one used on a standard Encore.



Does that look like your plug?

That's what I was figuring you meant. On my Black Diamond that channel doesn't get fouled. I must have some doggone crazy 777. Mine shoots very clean and the fouling, ash, whatever you want to call it, is dry.

Joe

[Underclocked]

I would say Willbird's is clogged so bad he THINKS he's hitting metal.

[Underclocked]

StarMetal, using 777 your plug will not foul as bad and if you do a water rinse - what is there will just rinse out unless it might be a bit of stubborn stuff from a dirty primer. A person should fit a drill bit to every new plug he gets so he KNOWS what size it is. Sometimes that carbon fouling looks just like the metal around it to the unassisted eye.

[Willbird]

I would say Willbird's is clogged so bad he THINKS he's hitting metal.

Well guess what ??.

I Willbird am full of it as it turns out. I got a bit more aggressive with a .120 dia drill and lo and behold there IS a hole there that will actually accept a .128 drill bit. I had to fire shot #2 in my "fire a shot a day for 3-5 days" experiment before I did so... didn't want to be digging around in there with a drill bit with the gun loaded. So we will see tomorrow if shot #3 hits in the group, or I need to start over.

Some of the claimed benefit of the breech plugs machined for 25 acp cases, or even cut down 6mm rem cases (these use a large primer) is preventing the primer flash from lifting the sabot before the power lights....opening that hole back up to 1/8" may offer a bit more volume in the passage, and could possibly shrink groups.


Here is a link top an article that talks about the altered case 6mm rem breech plug
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/FineTuning2.html


Bill

[Willbird]

Here are the first two days shots, if the group formed by the third is over on the left I am going to move right the appropriate amount and shoot another 3 shot group 1 per day on a new target. There is a 2 day day deer gun season next weekend .

These two shots were fired from a gun which had a bore condition of being fired with 1 fouling shot after cleaning.

[Underclocked]

Just glad you you got 'er done. What range are you sighting her in at?

[Willbird]

75 yards, just because that is a really easy place to leave my bench set up in the backyard. And most shots where we hunt are 75-125 yards..........there is one possible place it might go to 200 yards and I have click ups for 200 taped on the side of the gun butt.

[Underclocked]

That one per day thing you are doing is a confidence builder but I don't know that it is any more telling than just shooting a group if you swab to a clean bore each time and let the barrel cool. With BH209, you might find nothing gained from swabbing until after several shots.

My new Apex rifle shoots pretty consistently from cold/clean to fouled. The below picture is two 3-shot groups overlaid, one fired Sept 29th and the other Nov 5th. The hole marked with the red 1 is a cold, clean barrel shot on the 5th. The 29th group was all fouled shots.



I think the benefits of the modified plugs with rifle primers compared to just using a 209 are mainly in containment of blowback in some rifles. To me, they are simply not worth the added expense and aggravation. Some of the powders used in muzzleloaders are very unfriendly to cases. Besides, if a gun will fire sub-moa groups with 209s - the lifting of bullets from the charge must be pretty much a non-factor.

Blackhorn requires a full strength 209 to ignite reliably so there would be a big negative for you if you plan to continue using it in that rifle. The Win 209A primers that I use are just about minimum for BH209 - the CCI209M, Fed 209A, and Cheddites are all more potent than the the Winchesters.

ps: 100 yard groups

[StarMetal]

That one per day thing you are doing is a confidence builder but I don't know that it is any more telling than just shooting a group if you swab to a clean bore each time and let the barrel cool. With BH209, you might find nothing gained from swabbing until after several shots.

My new Apex rifle shoots pretty consistently from cold/clean to fouled. The below picture is two 3-shot groups overlaid, one fired Sept 29th and the other Nov 5th. The hole marked with the red 1 is a cold, clean barrel shot on the 5th. The 29th group was all fouled shots.



I think the benefits of the modified plugs with rifle primers compared to just using a 209 are mainly in containment of blowback in some rifles. To me, they are simply not worth the added expense and aggravation. Some of the powders used in muzzleloaders are very unfriendly to cases. Besides, if a gun will fire sub-moa groups with 209s - the lifting of bullets from the charge must be pretty much a non-factor.

Blackhorn requires a full strength 209 to ignite reliably so there would be a big negative for you if you plan to continue using it in that rifle. The Win 209A primers that I use are just about minimum for BH209 - the CCI209M, Fed 209A, and Cheddites are all more potent than the the Winchesters.

ps: 100 yard groups

Clock,

I'm sure you've read that article were I forget who tested the strength of various brand 209 primers. He stumbled upon it by accident. He was shooting a target 36 caliber with patched ball and it was 209 primed. He forgot to load the powder and just primed it and shot and hit the 100 yard target. So a light went on in his head how to test 209 primers. He had his chrono set up and began testing. I forget the velocity he got with just the primer but more interesting was he shot a pretty decent group. End of story is that there was a pretty wide variance between 209 brands.

I shoot loose powder and Maxi-Balls so I don't worry about the 209 moving the sabot.

Joe

[Willbird]

Well I had a real need to isolate something with the "1 per day" experiement. The gun shoots about 2" high from a bore freshly cleaned with shooters choice then dry patched than it does from a fouled bore.

So the question was is the 2" high shot from the bore condition, or is it something the rifle does even from a fouled bore.....the first two shots seem to indicate that it is from the clean bore condition.

Also when doing crono I noticed the first shot from a clean dry bore after cleaning out 777 residue (water followed by rubbing alcohol) was 75 fps higher than the next 3 shots.

So my gun apparently does some "interesting" things with the BH209 from a completely clean bore. That is not unusual.......I would expect it in any smokeless firearm.....but 777 seems to be an exception to that general rule....first shot from a clean dry bore is usually in the group.

I have not been able to get any sub moa groups YET, but I have only worked extensively with the barnes spitfire TMZ's.

I am using WW 209 primers, all I could get in fact. NO hang fires of any kind with them in 30 shots so far.

The writer in the article says he also got a good consistent light off with the large rifle magnum primers.

I would not pay $60 for a breech plug for the cut down 308 cases (they say 6mm...but most of that stuff is the same) but I might just MAKE a breechplug to try after deer season is over. 209's are just something I do not use at ALL.....only in the ML rifle.

My sabots do not just fall down the bbl either........the barnes bullet and sabot is a tight fit.

[Underclocked]

Toby Bridges did that test StarMetal refers to http://hpmuzzleloading.com/Technical3.html

Pretty interesting read. Toby does come up with some good info on occasion.

Some people equate tight fit to accuracy and I suppose that is true - within limits. One that requires me to strain my arm to get the load seated just isn't going to be used. Distortion of the bulllet can become a real factor. The above load in my Apex using the Harvester CRs and Speer .451 is snug but goes down smooth and even with only moderate pressure on the rod.

I guess the White Rifles spoiled me so far as ever using truly tight loads.

And it is fun to tinker on the cheap... more power to ya!

[Willbird]

Actually I want to try these hornady bullets next, same BC as the bullets with sabots, but no sabots needed. But that will be after ML season is over in mid january.

http://www.hornady.com/store/50-Cal-300-gr-FPB/

He does say in the article you posted that the BH209 seems to prevent primer pressure from moving the powder and projectile forward before ignition....maybe due to the large amount of air space that is present in a loaded "round" of powder/bullet ?

Bill