45Auto vs. 45Colt

[Changeling]

Wayne Dobbs;
Thanks for your comments. I HAD to qualify my statement as all of my deer were taken with the .44 magnum. However, on one particular hunt, I had run out of my hunting load (didn't realize I was so low) and ended up using my practice load (a 250 gr Keith at 1200 fps). Even tho' this was from a .44 magnum, that performance level can be reached with a .44 Special heavy load. You know what, the deer never knew the difference.

It is nice to have my statement confirmed with your ACTUAL experience.

Dale53

Dale I always look forward to what you have to say, and you don't need to qualify your statement.
Your 250 gr. Keith at 1200 fps is not a practice load, Hell, that will do it all.

Remember that LaunBaughs (spelling) wife and son took antelope and Mule deer at give or take 100 yards with complete pass through with Keith 260's at 900 fps.

In Keiths "6 guns" I am pretty sure he was shooting his 250's in 44/45 at 900 to 1000 fps at some short and extraordinary ranges that seemed to make him very happy, and if I remember correctly he had pass through most of the time.

Now if that kind of velocity from documented weight bullets by a couple of the greatest authorities on handguns is not qualified in itself, golly what the heck would be?

[Bass Ackward]

You won't go wrong either way, but I have always found that a fuller case that reaches the velocity of interest with the bullet weight of interest is the best way to proceed.

Poor ignition from powder position sensitivity is a PIA.

Well, after all the advice given, which one did you pick?

[softpoint]

Can you still shoot it with ACP brass after having the cylinder modified for Auto Rim?? Did you do the modification? If not who did it for you? I might have my Ruger convertible done if it will still shoot ACP brass.

Yes, ACP brass works fine. I didn't mill off the rear of the cylinder, I had Allan Harton from here in Houston cut a small countersink in each chamber to accept the thick rim of the AR case. Since the ACP headspaces on the mouth ,that dimension stayed the same. I had him recut the forcing cone on that gun and hone out the cylinder throats on both cylinders. That gun shoots every bit as good as the Smiths I have now. Allan does very good work

[softpoint]

I am not sure I understand the desire to modify the Ruger .45 ACP cylinder to accommodate the use of .45 Auto Rim. If you want a rimmed case, the .45 Colt cylinder is there. If you want a short rimmed case, then you can use .45 Cowboy Special cases in the .45 Colt cylinder.

The use of .45 Auto Rim cases in an S&W 625 (chambered in .45 ACP) is quite useful as it eliminates the NEED for full moon clips necessary for proper ejection when using .45 ACP cases. However, in the Ruger Single Action, since you eject the ACP's just like you do a rimmed case, what is the driving force behind wanting/needing the Auto Rim case?

I'm not intending to be critical here, just trying to understand...

Dale53

I didn't modify the Blackhawk out a need to use theAR brass specifically, since I have 2 Smith 625's and a couple 1911's around too, Idid it for separating loads.I use the AR brass with heavier cast bullet loads and use them in the revolvers only.The use of the AR brass also allows me to roll crimp those loads as well. I use the ACP brass for all the lighter loadings and taper crimp. Ican use these in either the revolvers or the 1911's

[ddixie884]

Good stuff......

[lotech]

I started loading .45 Colt in 1977 and have had a number of revolvers, a rifle and a carbine. I mostly used bullets cast from a Lyman #454424 4- cavity mould. I only have one .45 Colt revolver left, a 25-5 that I bought new forty years ago. Since working with the .44 Special in several S&W revolvers, I've seen slightly better accuracy and the cartridge will do all the .45 Colt will with bullets up to about 250 grains or a little more. I can't see a use for heavier bullets in a handgun . I'll probably sell my 25-5 as I don't shoot it anymore.

I like the Auto Rim cartridge in several S&W revolvers. I don't care for moon clips but do have the added gadgetry to deal with the clips if necessary. I've used the #454424 in Auto Rim brass; very accurate, but substantial recoil in comparison with a more suitable bullet like a #68 or copy.

.45 ACP in a Colt 1911-type or perhaps a good quality facsimile of the Colt has generally been more accurate for me than any revolver. One exception has been a Sig 220 I bought new about twenty or so years ago. Surprisingly, it's accuracy level has been comparable to an accurate 1911-type.

[black mamba]

Have any of you with 45 ACP/Colt convertibles measured the throats of both cylinders? I'm just wondering if the consensus of more accurate ACP cylinders has anything to do with throat diameters.

Another test I'd like to see done is loading both ACP and Colt rounds with the same bullets seated to the same OAL with the same powder charges. Would there be any difference in accuracy then? You would need a long bullet, seated out in the ACP and deep seated in the Colt, but I think it could be done.

[lotech]

Have any of you with 45 ACP/Colt convertibles measured the throats of both cylinders? I'm just wondering if the consensus of more accurate ACP cylinders has anything to do with throat diameters.

Another test I'd like to see done is loading both ACP and Colt rounds with the same bullets seated to the same OAL with the same powder charges. Would there be any difference in accuracy then? You would need a long bullet, seated out in the ACP and deep seated in the Colt, but I think it could be done.

I haven't done anything close to what you're inquiring about, but for those interested, I did try some lighter bullets, intended for .45 ACP or Auto Rim, in in my .45 Colt Winchester Trapper carbine with 16" barrel. I think I used four popular bullet designs in the 200-210 grain range. All shot poorly. Whether this was due to the 1 in 38" barrel twist rate or some other factor, I don't know, but the carbine is quite accurate using the Lyman #454424 design (about 250-260 grains).

[charlie b]

I guess I am odd man out. Had a Ruger convertible and the ACP setup was not as accurate for me as the LC.

I bought the .45LC to use heavy loads as a field gun when hunting. When I stopped hunting I sold it.

If you are going to limit yourself to the original factory level LC loads then the ACP/AR makes more sense. Case capacity means more efficient powder burn for the ACP/AR.

[Char-Gar]

Note: There are 45 Cowboy Special cases, now sold by Starline. There are nothing more that 45 ACP cases drawn with a 45 Colt rim. They will need a trip through the ACP resizer before their first use. What is the point your ask? They can be used in Ruger and other SAs with 45 ACP cylinders without doing any modification needed to the cylinder, as in the case of the 45 Auto Rim. Far easier to change the cartridge case than modify the cylinder.

[Dale53]

Note: There are 45 Cowboy Special cases, now sold by Starline. There are nothing more that 45 ACP cases drawn with a 45 Colt rim. They will need a trip through the ACP resizer before their first use. What is the point your ask? They can be used in Ruger and other SAs with 45 ACP cylinders without doing any modification needed to the cylinder, as in the case of the 45 Auto Rim. Far easier to change the cartridge case than modify the cylinder.

Char-Gar;
That is absolutely correct. I have been using the .45 Cowboy Special cases in my SS Ruger Bisley Convertible (ACP cylinder) for some years now with heavy bullets that require a roll crimp. They indeed work perfectly in the ACP cylinder of the Bisley just like the Auto Rim cases work in the S&W's (25 and 625's).

FWIW
Dale53

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar;
That is absolutely correct. I have been using the .45 Cowboy Special cases in my SS Ruger Bisley Convertible (ACP cylinder) for some years now with heavy bullets that require a roll crimp. They indeed work perfectly in the ACP cylinder of the Bisley just like the Auto Rim cases work in the S&W's (25 and 625's).

FWIW
Dale53

Some years back (about 26), I bought a U.S.Ptd.F.A. clone of an early Colt SA civilian revolver. That was when they were made with Uberti parts fitted and finished "under the Blue Dome". It is lovely revolver, but came with those hog wallow chambers with .457 throats. I sent it back for a 45 ACP cylinder and it came back, with a great cylinder with .453 throats. I shoot 242 grain Keith bullets over 4.5/Bulleye in the 45 CS case. The accuracy is great and shoot to those itty bitty sights. These loads also turn in outstand results in my Lipsey 45 Colt/45 ACP Flattop using the ACP cylinder.

[Roger Kehr]

I have a 3" S&W 625. Made in '88. Tight barrel and tight cylinder throats. I went to a lot of trouble getting the cast bullets matched to the cylinder throats and I still have a problem with misfires with the moonclips. Finally gave up and shoot jacketed bullets in the moon clips and cast bullets in the auto rim case. Shoots like a house afire, btw.

[Earlwb]

I think that one thing that people missed was that the 45 Colt originally started as a black powder cartridge. it needed more room for the powder charge. when modern smokeless powder came along the case now has a lot of empty space inside as the smokeless powder charge is less. the 45 ACP was a modern version in that they could shorten the case considerably since smokeless powder takes up less volume. The short fat case winds up being much more efficient than the long partially empty cases for the 45 Colt. The propellant charge has little to no space inside to allow it to move around and change how it ignites overall. That results in better accuracy. They have shown this effect with the modern rifle cartridges where the case is designed to hold a specific charge of propellant with little to no empty space. The short fat cartridge cases work better than the old style large long cases in rifles. This happened when smokeless propellants evolved over time rendering older cartridge designs obsolete in a sense for best accuracy. Thus some better inherent accuracy happens due to the propellant charge burning the same each time when fired. The effect results in much less muzzle velocity difference between the shots. Otherwise the bench rest target shooters would not all be using them. For example the 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm bench rest rounds and rounds like the 6.5 Creedmoor or the 224 Valkyre.

Now granted there are lots of other factors involved too. But every little bit helps.

[bisleyfan41]

Note: There are 45 Cowboy Special cases, now sold by Starline. There are nothing more that 45 ACP cases drawn with a 45 Colt rim. They will need a trip through the ACP resizer before their first use. What is the point your ask? They can be used in Ruger and other SAs with 45 ACP cylinders without doing any modification needed to the cylinder, as in the case of the 45 Auto Rim. Far easier to change the cartridge case than modify the cylinder.

Char-Gar;
That is absolutely correct. I have been using the .45 Cowboy Special cases in my SS Ruger Bisley Convertible (ACP cylinder) for some years now with heavy bullets that require a roll crimp. They indeed work perfectly in the ACP cylinder of the Bisley just like the Auto Rim cases work in the S&W's (25 and 625's).

FWIW
Dale53

I did not know this! Wow, a whole new frontier opened. Thank you!

[ddixie884]

That Star-Line .45 Cowboy brass is really nice for use in SA .45acp cylinders and it is really handy that case capacity is so similar to .45acp for near identical loads..........

[frogleg]

Does this mean the 45 AR can be used in a Ruger 45 Colt cylinder just like the 45LC case?

No , the Rim is too thick

[Liberty1776]

Pietta makes the 1873 Great Western II -- a single action .45 Colt clone that comes with two cylinders -- .45LC and .45ACP.

[Outpost75]

Does this mean the 45 AR can be used in a Ruger 45 Colt cylinder just like the 45LC case?

Negative. The AR rim is .09" thick to equal the thickness of the .45 ACP rim plus the clip. Some people face off the rear of the cylinder to use AR brass, but the Starline .45 Cowboy Special is a .45 ACP draw with a .45 Colt rim and head turn, which requires no mod to the gun and is a better solution.

[6string]

I am thankful we live in a country where we can take our choice: ACP, "Long" Colt, or both!

Sorry to hear that recent S&W 625s don't cut their chambers to allow headspacing off the case mouth. The old "pre 25", such as 1950 target or 1955 target were cut with careful attention to chamber dimensions. They headspace consistently off the case mouth. You'll get best accuracy paying attention to case length. If you use moon clips, I'd caution that you pay attention to their influence on headspace. Lap a steel full moon clip on a lapping plate and see how bad they can be.
In fact, dress them down thin enough that they're only being used to facilitate loading and unloading. Your down range groups will thank you for it!