Cast bullets in .223

[riverwalker76]

it would fire but it would not cycle the bolt back to eject or chamber a round. I had to pull the handle to eject and chamber a round.

Two things ....

First, you need to switch out your buffer and spring in your stock when firing cast loads.
You want a 9mm buffer and spring. It will slow down your cycle and allow it to eject and chamber another round. You can find the parts here ....

Extra Power Spring .... http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tnumber=152626

9mm Buffer .... http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...m_campaign=649

Next, you need to upgrade your extractor spring. The benefit of this is that it will enable your rifle to perform more reliably all around.

Extractor Upgrade Kit ....http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-E...%20upgrade.htm

This will help, and I can almost guarantee that you will not have anymore problems after that! The physics are that with the heavier buffer and spring you will slow down the bolt carrier group and allow it to perform it's cycle fully before engaging the next round. A side benefit of this is that it will reduce the felt recoil. I keep an extra heavy spring and buffer in my AR at all times. The ones that the factories put out are designed for factory ammo.

If you really wanted to go premium ... you can go with what I put in all of my firearms. The Sprinco kits from http://www.sprinco.com/. These are the same springs that the US Naval Warfare specialists put in all of their rifles / pistols when they are upgrading or tuning a firearm.

[cardonasharp]

What will happen when I shot factory ammo or my reloads with 27.0grs of varget. Do I have to change everything back to factory specs. I do not want to switch back and forth. It may not be worth it just a thought.

[StarMetal]

I have to disagree. The cast load doesn't have enough power to cycle the rifle to start with and adding the 9mm buffer and spring will only make it worse. Slowly it down so it will cycle fully and load better??? Huh????

Don't waste your money. You don't need the buffer or any of the springs. Your rifle was set up for full power jacketed. Many of us are shooting cast with bone stock rifles. I have an adjustable gas valve on mine and it's tuned for jacketed, which means I have it turned down some from the wide open spot...and it even runs my anemic cast loads.

I got away from the fast pistol powder loads in my AR and have gone on to rifle powder and little hotter loads. A good powder is 4198 and if you want faster go to 4227.

I'll tell you something else heavier buffers and springs do too, they beat your carrier/bolt group up...and the barrel extension. A better solution then David Tubbs carrier weight or the heavier buffers are adjustable gas systems....like in an adjustable gas block or adjustable gas valve. I'm not saying you need this though.

[felix]

I would not purchase an auto of any type to be used with reloaded ammo that does not have a manually adjustable recoil system. Gas adjustment or replaceable springs are required, and I don't care which. ... felix

[riverwalker76]

What will happen when I shot factory ammo or my reloads with 27.0grs of varget. Do I have to change everything back to factory specs. I do not want to switch back and forth. It may not be worth it just a thought.

You can keep the same buffer and spring in your AR no matter what you shoot.

I have an H3 (Extra Heavy Buffer and Xtra Action Spring in my AR and I shoot everything .... pistol powder cast boolits, factory, and reloads.

A good friend of mine, Mike Pannone, wrote an article awhile back that you might want to look into. http://www.defensereview.com/the-big...m4-unreliable/ In this article he does a very good job of describing the function of the buffer, spring, and extractor.

I have to disagree. The cast load doesn't have enough power to cycle the rifle to start with and adding the 9mm buffer and spring will only make it worse. Slowly it down so it will cycle fully and load better??? Huh????

In all actuality ... it's probably not what you would think! It's probably the fact that his extractor is used to heavier loads and is worn in. He needs an extractor spring upgrade. I've seen it dozens of times. I even ran across one rifle that wouldn't fire WCC new production whatsoever. Every time I would fire a WCC cartridge it would fail to eject.

Trust me .... you need to adjust your platform to work with the amount of gas that is pushing the BCG. The 9mm platform will work fine. Think about it ... what do you think they use to cycle the 9mm AR platforms? They usually utilize a few grains less than what you are using.

One last thing to check ... take your Bolt Carrier Group apart and make sure it is spotless inside and out. The 3 rings on the back of your bolt .... make sure they are staggered and not in line with each other. I have seen this happen in some direct impingement platforms where the gas escapes the keys on some models.

Take my advice or don't ... I'm only trying to help and shed some light on the problem with the experience I have.

[StarMetal]

You can keep the same buffer and spring in your AR no matter what you shoot.

I have an H3 (Extra Heavy Buffer and Xtra Action Spring in my AR and I shoot everything .... pistol powder cast boolits, factory, and reloads.

A good friend of mine, Mike Pannone, wrote an article awhile back that you might want to look into. http://www.defensereview.com/the-big...m4-unreliable/ In this article he does a very good job of describing the function of the buffer, spring, and extractor.



In all actuality ... it's probably not what you would think! It's probably the fact that his extractor is used to heavier loads and is worn in. He needs an extractor spring upgrade. I've seen it dozens of times. I even ran across one rifle that wouldn't fire WCC new production whatsoever. Every time I would fire a WCC cartridge it would fail to eject.

Trust me .... you need to adjust your platform to work with the amount of gas that is pushing the BCG. The 9mm platform will work fine. Think about it ... what do you think they use to cycle the 9mm AR platforms? They usually utilize a few grains less than what you are using.

One last thing to check ... take your Bolt Carrier Group apart and make sure it is spotless inside and out. The 3 rings on the back of your bolt .... make sure they are staggered and not in line with each other. I have seen this happen in some direct impingement platforms where the gas escapes the keys on some models.

Take my advice or don't ... I'm only trying to help and shed some light on the problem with the experience I have.

Well we don't know if his extractor is shot and I highly doubt it. The 9mm is a straight blow back and the cartridge runs in the high 30K's so it needs a heavier bolt, heavier buffer, and heavier buffer spring. Like I said a heavier buffer or heavier carrier/bolt group, including a carrier weight, beat your gun unnecessary. There are narrow and special applications for lightened and heavier carriers.

The extractor as zero to do with the bolt/carrier group cycling back.

It's also a fallacy, unless the gas system is extremely worn out that you have to stagger your gas rings. If you're worried about those then I suggest getting the spiral wound gas ring.

What other direct impingement systems do you know of besides the AR's that have gas rings on the bolt??

Sounds to me that you suffer from this: Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.

[riverwalker76]

It's also a fallacy, unless the gas system is extremely worn out that you have to stagger your gas rings. If you're worried about those then I suggest getting the spiral wound gas ring.

I'm not here to argue, but I will contradict you on this one .... I had a Colt M4 with 2k rounds down the pipe that caused me problems in Fallujah. One night in Automatic Transmission Fluid and staggering the keys fixed it.

Like I said ... I'm only offering my professional opinion. I'm not here to argue about who knows what.

Who was it that said "Battefield Ingenuity is the Mother of Invention" ... can't remember right now.

[StarMetal]

I'm not here to argue, but I will contradict you on this one .... I had a Colt M4 with 2k rounds down the pipe that caused me problems in Fallujah. One night in Automatic Transmission Fluid and staggering the keys fixed it.

Like I said ... I'm only offering my professional opinion. I'm not here to argue about who knows what.

Who was it that said "Battefield Ingenuity is the Mother of Invention" ... can't remember right now.

I have to inquire, why do you keep calling them "keys". They are gas rings. Plus all you just mentioned was cleaning them, you didn't say the problem was that you pulled the bolt apart and the gas rings slots were all lined up? You're not making sense.

[riverwalker76]

I have to inquire, why do you keep calling them "keys". They are gas rings. Plus all you just mentioned was cleaning them, you didn't say the problem was that you pulled the bolt apart and the gas rings slots were all lined up? You're not making sense.

Sorry for the confusion. I meant gas rings ... not keys.

Midnight is late for me.

[cardonasharp]

I came to the board for answers and I have more Question. now I am totally lost.

I am using a gas check cast bullet the weight is 55Gr's.

My gas system is not adjustable.
My DPMS AR15 is in perfect working order and very clean.
Bolts assembly is clean and the gas rings are staggered.
I really do not want to change the spring or buffer tube.

[StarMetal]

I came to the board for answers and I have more Question. now I am totally lost.

I am using a gas check cast bullet the weight is 55Gr's.

My gas system is not adjustable.
My DPMS AR15 is in perfect working order and very clean.
Bolts assembly is clean and the gas rings are staggered.
I really do not want to change the spring or buffer tube.

Sir you just need a stiffer load. Unless one is willing to modify a semi auto for cast , then you are stuck with non cycling. If you don't want to modify, and I suggest not on an AR15, that you use a more powerful cast load. I'm not talking about one that even comes close to factory jacketed, but one that has more power then your Unique load. Now, on the other hand, if you Unique load is extremely accurate, I suggest go on with the manual cycling of it.

Some semi autos can be modified very easily, like the SKS's for example.

Your rifle isn't cycling all the way because there isn't enough gas pressure in the Unique load to overcome the force of the buffer spring, hammer spring, and buffer and carrier/bolt weight. Now I ask you, as the other posted suggested putting a heavier 9mm buffer and stronger buffer spring going to make all those things I mentioned easier to overcome? NO. You could get one of the lightest buffers and lighter buffer spring and maybe get it to work, but if you forget to switch them out when shooting full house jacketed you may damage your rifle.

[GabbyM]

I came to the board for answers and I have more Question. now I am totally lost.

I am using a gas check cast bullet the weight is 55Gr's.

My gas system is not adjustable.
My DPMS AR15 is in perfect working order and very clean.
Bolts assembly is clean and the gas rings are staggered.
I really do not want to change the spring or buffer tube.

You just need slower powder as I stated earlier. Burn rate between 4198 to 4895. IMR 4227 is the fastest powder I've known of an AR rifle cycling at. H4895 would be a good place to start. It meters easier than the 4198 and uses quite a bit more powder so your action should work. 19.5 to 20.0 grains of 4895. With 4198 you get buy with 14.5 grains. I've been shooting 4198 and RX7 and have not tried the 4895 loads. Forget the guys shooting 16” pistol barrels. They are a different beast since the gas port is closer to the chamber.

[LowPE]

I have shot thousands of the RCBS 55 grainer, gas checked, out of my stock 20" Armalite AR15. I use AA2230 and it functions very reliably. I also use the RCBS x-die...

I tried pistol powders initially and they lacked the ooomph needed to work the action.

GabbyM is dead on right in my experience.

[JKH]

absolutely, Starmetal & Gabby are 100% correct.

I read where one poster supposedly got functioning with 9 grains of Unique, if he did in fact achieve that goal than he had to have been using a 16" carbine gas system and possibly lighter buffer and buffer spring.

I am a neophyte when it comes to cast lead in an AR15 but not a neophyte when it comes to the weapon system, I have built and owned in excess of 30 AR15 type rifles and AR10 type rifles as well as cutting my teeth on an M16A1 owned by Uncle sam's Army in the early 80's, what was poseted earlier about heavier buffer and spring, extractor, etc. is pure hoqwash and drivel!

You're DPMS is a fine rifle as is, and as Gabby has shown through experience you just need to tweak you're loads with the right powder, I know this is where I am going with my loads!
As I am cheap at heart I liked the sounds of a cycling load that only used 9 grains of Unique, that sure would be nice! However, in the realm of reality it just aint gonna happen ;^ )
Fortunately I have 8 pounds of AA2230C on hand which has made many fine jacketed loads in any AR I have used it in and will be trying that, there is a thread here specifically about cast lead in an AR with 5.56/.223 and one successful poster was using 18.5 grains AA2230, I will back off a hair and start with that.

Starmetal certainly has sage advice and I certainly concur with him, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing when not properly applied, firearms are NOT the proper venue for making irrational tweaks nilly willy, damage to the firearm and to the owner can occur quite readily and at times with irreversible results :^ O

Jeff

[brotherdarrell]

I might as well add my experiences.

dpms w/16" bull barrel carbine, rcbs 22-55gc:

8 gr. unique - will not cycle
9.5 gr. unique - will not cycle
11.5 gr 2400 - will not cycle
13 gr rx7 - will eject empty but not pickup new round
17.5 gr aa2015 - will eject empty but not pickup new round

going to try again tomorrow with 18.2 gr aa2230. I got close with the last two, unfortunately rx7 and aa2015 are running low and am saving it for my .222 m788.

brother darrell

[brotherdarrell]

add 18.2 grs aa2230 to the list of will eject empty but will not pick up new round. Did get group under 2" @ 100yds though.

brother darrell

[cardonasharp]

I have read and read. I decided not to cast for my AR15

[JIMinPHX]

I run the heavy version 225415 with the long GC shank full out @ 3K+ with H322 and H335 and get great 1 to 1.2 M.O.A results in my H&R handi ...

Alloy is Wd'ed 50/50 ww/pure + 5% NICKEL Bearing Railroad BABBIT cured for 2 weeks before firing.
...

I'll assume that you are water dropping those boolits. Do you happen to know how hard they are coming up?

[JIMinPHX]

Hi Jim

I noticed how you have these seated. I was trying to seat mine deeper - more toward the front groove. This put the gas check, as best as I could tell, about 1/2 still in the neck of the case. How did you arrive at your seating depth?

thanks

Daryl

Those are seated waaaaayyyy out far like that because my rifle has a really long throat. I seated them out until the boolit touched the rifling. My accuracy got much better after that.

I get away with seating them out that far because I only shoot them in a single shot gun. There is hardly any boolit left inside the case neck. I don't think that they would stay together if I tried them in an autoloader. Even a bolt gun would probably have trouble digesting them.

[KennethF]

Bruce Drake,

When you have found the load that works best in your rifle, and you are getting good groups, but with occasional fliers, try what Harvey Donaldson suggested in his book "Yours Truley Harvey 'Donaldson" Harvey wrote that when he would get a flier when he felt that everything was right with the cartridge, he would remove that cartridge case that produced the flyer from the rest of the cases that did produce good groups. He said that by doing this, his groups would become much smaller.

Ken.