shooting lead in my Garands

[PGBsuperior]

Well, this being mom's day and all I decided to spend most of it doing what *I* wanted, and what I wented was to work up a load for my garands using my cast 130 grain gas checked spire point bullets.

So I ended up shooting at the old trailer frame out back and I found that with 35.5 grains of IMR 4895 that bullet is pretty darn accurate and goes right through that steel frame out there. It's a pretty good plinking round I don't mind telling you. I think I'm going to load up a couple ammo cans of this stuff, in clips. A can holds 33 clips.

I really enjoyed the day, and I think I'm going to get into some serious case prep tonight.

I wonder if this round would be good for hunting...

a.

[NuJudge]

After about 200 rounds, you may notice a change in zero, then eventually functioning problems. Was it E H Harrison who wrote about this in the Rifleman years ago?

Christopher Dingell

[PGBsuperior]

what sort of functioning problems?

a.

[BruceB]

NuJudge, pard;

I wasn't aware of the the functioning change, either, or perhaps I should say that my Garand hasn't read that part of the book. Last year, I fired over 600 consecutive cast-bullet loads without cleaning the rifle, and it was still running at 100% when I finally stripped it, partly from guilt and partly just from curiosity.

The bore was bright and shiny, and there was very little fouling in the gas system.

The change of zero, I can't address, because I was using wildly-assorted experimental CB loads with varying powders and different bullet weights. A zero change could easily have taken place without ever being noticed.

PGB, that load of 35 grains of 4895 also functions well in my rifle with almost any bullet from 150 to 220 grains. Try 42.0 HODGDON'S 4831 with a 220 as well; that's a match load from BobS, and he swears by it. (He puts 1/4 sheet of toilet tissue over the powder, too.)

Of course, NEVER use 4831 in a Garand with jacketed bullets, as the port pressure is too high and can (will) result in damage to the rifle. With cast boolits, the functioning is nice and soft and presents no danger to rifle or shooter.

[Bob S]

I started shooting that load over 40 years ago as a poor undergraduate student. I never had any functioning problems or POI shifts that Ed Harris reported.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

P.S. That 42 grains of 4831 was WW II surplus 4831. If you choose to go that route with current-production powder, you'll need to start lower, perhaps 38 grains and work up.

[versifier]

Amy, which 130gr boolit/alloy are you shooting and how accurate is "pretty darned accurate"? I'm going to be playing with my Garand this summer with cast for the first time. (We kill deer with 113gr Lee soupcans out of the .30-30, your 130gr should do the job. Flat noses tend to work a bit better on game, though.) BTW, that is a beautiful stock on the Garand you have pictured on the other thread about your loading setup. Is that the same one you were talking about?
Bruce, what's your favorite boolit in your Garand? What weights does yours prefer, or is it not picky?

[LowPE]

Thanks to this board, I am happily shooting 311284 with 35.5 grains of IMR4831...I've worked up to 37.5 grains with no pressure signs but the 35.5 shoots well enough for my purposes.

I am putting in the toilet paper filler, too.

To make life easier, I am using the RCBS x-die.

Thanks.

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=versifier]
"Bruce, what's your favorite boolit in your Garand? What weights does yours prefer, or is it not picky?"


Tough question! Actually, I think my rifle has some problems which need the services of a good GARAND gunsmith, meaning one who's familiar with M1 bedding, front-end unitizing, etc. My M1 works flawlessly, but the accuracy isn't there. Among other things, it has demonstrated a very obvious 1st-round flyer condition, where the first round of a string lands about 4" low...at FIFTY yards. Sometimes the remaining rounds will group fairly well, and sometimes not.

It's so disheartening that I even loaded some 168-grain Sierra Matchkings over a recommended "accuracy" powder charge. The outcome was dismal, being a group of 8 rounds sprawling 4" at fifty yards.

The rifle is in excellent condition, being a Springfield of Korean-War production with a new '65-dated SA barrel installed. It sits in a Boyd's stock set.

I'm far from being a stranger to the M1, but this one has me about stumped. By comparison, my M1A is a dream and shoots just great. Deciding on a favorite boolit for the Garand will have to wait a while, I reckon.

[bruce drake]

BruceB,

Does the Garand's triggerplate snap in to position with authority or does it lock into place nice and easy? If you've got slop in the bedding of the triggerhousing due to an oil-soaked (the wood compresses easily when it is oil-soaked) stock you can run into variances with your bullets as the rifle rebounds within the slackness of the stock. A good glass-bedding on your current stock or replacing with a newer stock may clear up your issues.

Bruce

[Bob S]

BruceB:

The Boyd's stock may be your problem, unless it is glass bedded. I have not yet found a Boyd's that will fit properly without being glassed or shimmed. In addition to the "clamping tension" (which is usually ok), the barreled receiver must have ZERO motion in the stock with the whole trigger assembly removed. If it moves fore-and-aft, athwartship, or has any "yaw" in it, the rifle won't group up to its potential. I've tried three, and they have all had fore-and-aft slop in the receiver bedding.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[BruceB]

Thanks, gents.

Yep, I'm inclined to think the stock is the problem, even though it's brand new and hence very dry and without any oil-soaked areas. Clamping pressure does seem much the same as other garands I've owned in the past. My "experience" with Garands doesn't extend to re-stocking, and it can be a ticklish job.

This stock was on the rifle when I bought it, and I've considered swapping it for a Wenig, or maybe sending the rifle to Dean's Gun Restorations

www.dgrguns.com

where he turns out GLORIOUS Garands, if you want to take a look.

[NuJudge]

Hey, if people can get Lead bullets to work in Garands, more power to them.

OK, found the article. Page 69 of NRA's "Cast Bullets", originally a letter to the Editor of the Rifleman by CE Harris.

"Cast Bullets in M1 Rifle"

Linotype metal, Lyman 311414 bullet with gas check, 50/50 Alox 2138F and Beeswax, Remington 9.5 primer, 45 grains of 4895.

Harris reported accuracy as good as Ball, but a gradual zero change started after about 500 rounds, eventually totalling 2 minutes of angle.

He found Lead deposits on the piston face and cylinder walls. After removal, zero back to where it was originally. Re-reading it, he does not mention functioning problems, just the zero change.

Christopher Dingell

[BruceB]

Chris;

Hoo Boy! I can sure see why he had leading. 311414 is a spirepoint of roughly 150 grains, and the 45.0/4895 powder charge was close to the service-level load of 4895 used in M2 ammunition (150 FMJ). I'd estimate the velocity of the load to be 2600 fps or MORE. Thanks for digging out the article!

Most of the loads we're using run almost 1000 fps below that, and Bob's 42/4831 with 311284 (220+ grains) leaves at just over 2000 fps. By going for lower speeds, heavier bullets, and slower powders, we take advantage of the cast bullet's strengths and minimize its weaknesses.

Personally, I have no interest in duplicating the service load with a cast bullet, but the charm of such a duplicate is obvious...if it could be made to work. With the sights being so easily adjustable, it's simple to keep notes on the settings for any particular load. My "default zero" , where the sights are normally set, is for the 168 Matchking at 2550, but the groups are loose enough that even the so-called zero may be in some error.

Anyway, Harrison was sure drivig those 150s HARD! I suspect with today's better lubes and general increase in cast-bullet knowledge it might be more possible to do this with good results. His accuracy results don't sound too bad, but it's no wonder the system leaded-up to a considerable degree.

[PGBsuperior]

Amy, which 130gr boolit/alloy are you shooting and how accurate is "pretty darned accurate"? I'm going to be playing with my Garand this summer with cast for the first time. (We kill deer with 113gr Lee soupcans out of the .30-30, your 130gr should do the job. Flat noses tend to work a bit better on game, though.) BTW, that is a beautiful stock on the Garand you have pictured on the other thread about your loading setup. Is that the same one you were talking about?
Bruce, what's your favorite boolit in your Garand? What weights does yours prefer, or is it not picky?

The mould is an RCBS 82022


You may have trouble getting the top punch for it, Midway had only one left which I got. Yes, that's one of the Garands I was talking about, I had the same stockset put on the other one, and will get it for all my future Garands, along with the Turner Saddlery slings.

Pretty darned accurate is a 6 in. group offhand at 100 yds.

a.

[Jack Stanley]

I've bought more than one Wenig stock that has been fitted by Dean . Dean fits them to the rifle well enough that I didn't need to bed the rifle . A good fit of the stock is a very important part of accuracy . Once that is done right the rest of it isn't real hard to track down most of the time .

Jack