Lyman 525 & NEF UltraSLug

[BIG GUN]

Ajay, have you tried the Frankford Arsenal release agent? A little-dab-will-do-ya. I am curious to know how they perform, as opposed to an oversive airgun pellet.

Pete

I have both the Lee key and the Lyman 525. Lee say's to use pure lead and they mean it. They are tough to get off the mold due to the two fingers that form the key. I cast a few hundred and loaded a few boxes in AA hulls using a charge of 35G of Universal. Accuracy stunk. Using the 525G airgun pellet made of indoor range scrap,[pretty much pure lead] in AA hulls with the WW12R wad over 45G Blue Dot I get sub 2" grps at 100 yds. with my ultra slug with a 4 power Norinco scope.
GET THE LYMAN!

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello finally I followed your advice and I now have the slugs.
Thanks.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Cool Ajay... load em' up. Run them hot ? Softer alloy? Spray?

Pete

[phaessler]

Well, without an excuses I managed to get some 100yd results. Much to my suprise are the results.
These were shot from a bench same as the 50yd targets. The bore was cleaned before the first shot on each group. Loads were assembled in the same fashion as previously tested.
New hulls, same lot of BlueDot, slugs were also cast at the same time.

44gn load is shown here with the first shot out of a clean barrel 2" higher than the other 3 shots, measured at 1.3" ctr to ctr on the furthest shots.
Target again was a 4" square.


Next was the 50gn BlueDot. The first shot from the clean barrel is approx. 4" above the group. The remaining 3 shots were lower, suprisingly, and the groups measures 3.3" ctr to ctr on the furthest shots.


Amazingly the 50gn loads shot lower and the group was spread out almost twice of the 44gn loads. Pretty conclusive to say 50 may be pushing them a bit to hard.
The bright side of things are that I recovered wads and seals which were very much intact, i.e. no missing petals. I also recovered 2 slugs which showed minimal deformation after they were dug out of the bank. I will weigh them and post pics soon.

Where am I going from here, well going to try 44,46, 48 gn BlueDot loads to confirm where the groups open up and work backwards to tighten them up, I need to readjust my POI, and maybe try new powder.
Overall pretty pleased with it, and have answered alot of my own questions. And made some observations which even suprised me.

Oh, and the best part was a guy shooting a NEW 870 with Rem Green tip sabots, he was thrilled with a 3" group at 50yds, until I let him try my Ultra at 50.

Pete

[peter nap]

Lookin good Pete.

I'm wondering what 2400 would do since the 50 grains of Blue Dot seems to be blowing the group a little.

[phaessler]

2400 would be a good place to start if I switch powder, the BlueDot loads are ok, but as in my .44Mag loads, its has violent ignition tendecies. Was thinking Universal, or Herco perhaps.

Pete

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings to you all. Phaessler the next powder should be A.Steel as its only one notch slower than Blue Dot. Very interesting finding that with 50 grs of Blue Dot your groups are larger because the powder is not fully burning in this case and you might have noticed a difference in the recoil due to that.
Now just for your reference I am mentioning some 2400 powder loads for Brenneke slugs from way back.
3" Fed plastic Fed 209 Blue Dot 45gr 1525fps 10,400Lup Roll crimp
3" Rem " Rem 97* H.2400 56.5gr 1525fps 10.000 " " "
3" Win CF Win 209 H.2400 57.5gr 1525fps 9,400 " " "
2 3/4 Win CF Win 209 Herco 37gr 1570fps 9,700 " " "
These loads were with nitro cards and fiber filler wads.
Just for your reference only.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Well the data you posted is interesting Ajay, I am not sure what not full burning would mean with the 50gn load, as it is not leaving any unburnt powder residue in the barrel or the hull. But the 50gn load , upon cleaning the rifle, has alot of plastic residue, being from the wad/seal package I am using. Fortunately I dont mind shooting this thing...its kind of fun.

Pete

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Phaessler usually 50 gr of Blue Dot does not get all burned up in shorter barrels. If you put a white sheet on the ground in front of you ,you could easily see if any unburned powder is being spitted out the barrel unburned. Also what primer you use will play a big role in that too. The Fed 209 A will help as it is hot.
50 grains of Blue Dot in a 3" hull is giving you 1700 fps velocity and 45 grains of Blue Dot in
2 3/4 inch hull Fed 12C1 wad around 1500 fps.
Wileyhunter sells the above loaded slugs to hunters
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Very interesting Ajay, never thought of the sheet trick, have used it before while developing some Ackley centerfire loads. WIll have to see, typically in my Mossberg the 50gn load leaves powder flakes in the hull, barrel, and on the bench when you eject the spent round.
I am using new Fiocchi hulls, the 616 primer they come with seems ok, but I agree the Fed 209A is probably warmer, and more consistent.
What I did notice on the 50gn loads, was where the ejector slot is in the barrel, the brass, although high, had expanded to fill the slot, never saw that before so I am sure pressures are up there, or the hull brass lacks integrity. I found this today, while cleaning out my bags from yesterday. I will take some pictures tommorrow, while it rains again.
Great data there, sort of afraid to use my chrony, lost one last year trying to chrony slug load. The wad hit the first sensor and wiped it out. Need to fabricate a plywood shield with a window to shoot thru.
I see this project hanging around for a bit. I still want to try out a few different loads, powders, hulls, cards etc. This is only the tip of it I am afraid.

Pete

[peter nap]

Very interesting Ajay, never thought of the sheet trick, have used it before while developing some Ackley centerfire loads. WIll have to see, typically in my Mossberg the 50gn load leaves powder flakes in the hull, barrel, and on the bench when you eject the spent round.
I am using new Fiocchi hulls, the 616 primer they come with seems ok, but I agree the Fed 209A is probably warmer, and more consistent.
What I did notice on the 50gn loads, was where the ejector slot is in the barrel, the brass, although high, had expanded to fill the slot, never saw that before so I am sure pressures are up there, or the hull brass lacks integrity. I found this today, while cleaning out my bags from yesterday. I will take some pictures tommorrow, while it rains again.
Great data there, sort of afraid to use my chrony, lost one last year trying to chrony slug load. The wad hit the first sensor and wiped it out. Need to fabricate a plywood shield with a window to shoot thru.
I see this project hanging around for a bit. I still want to try out a few different loads, powders, hulls, cards etc. This is only the tip of it I am afraid.

Pete

The brass flow would concern me Pete. I've shot considerably more than 50 grains in mine but I believe my combo was so leaky, it was blowing a lot of pressure around the gas seal.

Darn shotshells are hard to read. Certainly not like rifle brass. The times I've gotten obvious pressure signs like that, it was just a tick away from case failure.

[phaessler]

Me too Peter, they are tough to read pressure indications, darn plastic, otherwise I would have shrugged it off. I many a time have pushed the pressure envelope on a centerfire load, flattened primers,flow-back on primers, blown-out shoulders, ejector marks on the case heads, the full deal developing some Ackley data. But this is a definite sign, not sure if its how I interpruted the data from Lyman's manual.
Of course the data for tapered hulls is drastically different than for straight hulls, as the pressure curves are different. So I most likely overlooked this, but they ejected fine, and the primers while a little flat around where the pin hits, they are nowhere near flattened. I will need to see what else I missed, now. And perhaps I will come up with something a little less powder consuming than the 50gn, and more efficent with lower pressures.
I thought centerfire rifle was tough....

Pete

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Pete and Peter here is some thing I want you to read just for reference only by:
Turbo 1889 Yes, the Alliant Steel powder is bulky and don't meter. But that doesn't matter for me because I individually weigh out all my slug load charges any-way. For 12ga. slug load development I usually start with Blue Dot and work the load up till I get sticky extraction then switch to an equal grain charge of Steel powder and fiddle with the load some more to get it where I want it.
I can vouch for, Steel, that it works correctly down to about -20 F. Yah, I know, I'm nuts to be out on the range in such weather; but I always seem to have the range completely to myself on days like that.
This is from another forum.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Hmm, interesting, will be looking into aquiring some I think. Not concerned with velocity so much as pressure, repeatablity. Temperature here is by no means an issue, it rarely gets "cold", I am from New England originally, and I know what cold can do to load data.
Too much to think on now... but could be worse.
thanks again Ajay, whats the other forum? should I be reading more of it ??

Pete

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Moring Pete I am posting a link but it got a little nasty with one fellow trying to be a freak.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...f=118&t=196961
Every day is a new day and we all learn each day.
Ajay Madan
www./PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[peter nap]

Ajay, in your post there, you said:

The sabot arms ( petals ) bend them back flat on a table so that they are sure to open rapidly and release the bullet.

I have been using a pipe cutter to score a ring at the base of my sabots. The ones I've recovered were folded back perfectly.

This works well (and was the reason I started doing it) on the Precision Reloading Steel wads that I cut down for the Lyman slug.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good Morning Peter I like your ideas and look forwards to more creative stuff from you. I consider you a friend and a good friend.
When you buy another 100 acres then Pete and I will visit your farm to hunt one day.
At the end of that post it got a little nasty Please dont mind that for I'm still your and Pete's friend.
Please tell me if I was wrong or if you would have dealt it any differently than I did?
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[tommygirlMT]

<snip>

What I did notice on the 50gn loads, was where the ejector slot is in the barrel, the brass, although high, had expanded to fill the slot, never saw that before so I am sure pressures are up there, or the hull brass lacks integrity.

<snip>

Great data there, sort of afraid to use my chrony, lost one last year trying to chrony slug load. The wad hit the first sensor and wiped it out. Need to fabricate a plywood shield with a window to shoot thru.

<snip>

The brass flow would concern me Pete. I've shot considerably more than 50 grains in mine but I believe my combo was so leaky, it was blowing a lot of pressure around the gas seal.

Darn shotshells are hard to read. Certainly not like rifle brass. The times I've gotten obvious pressure signs like that, it was just a tick away from case failure.

Me too Peter, they are tough to read pressure indications, darn plastic, otherwise I would have shrugged it off. I many a time have pushed the pressure envelope on a centerfire load, flattened primers,flow-back on primers, blown-out shoulders, ejector marks on the case heads, the full deal developing some Ackley data. But this is a definite sign, not sure if its how I interpruted the data from Lyman's manual.
Of course the data for tapered hulls is drastically different than for straight hulls, as the pressure curves are different. So I most likely overlooked this, but they ejected fine, and the primers while a little flat around where the pin hits, they are nowhere near flattened. I will need to see what else I missed, now. And perhaps I will come up with something a little less powder consuming than the 50gn, and more efficent with lower pressures.
I thought centerfire rifle was tough....

Pete

First, with shotguns by the time the primer is flattened the gun is already blown up unless it's a really, really tough gun. The NEF-USH is a really tough gun but it's not a really, really tough gun.

Second, the bulge in the hull brass base where the extractor is --- that is a significant and prominent pressure sign for a shotgun load. It's right up there with loads that stick in the barrel and refuse to eject and you have to tap them out from the muzzle with a dowel. DO NOT IGNORE THIS Depending on the gun/hull when you start getting too hot either you will get this pressure sign or sticky extraction first. Both at the same time is next and the gun blowing up is after that. Sometimes you will get a slight bulge with full pressure but not over pressure loads in some guns --- especially 410-bore 3" and 12ga. 3-1/2" which are the two highest max pressure on common shotgun cartridge sizes.

To diferentiate between having a maximum and a too hot load for sure you need to find a near maximum pressure book load receipe for the exact same hulls your are loading your experimental loads in. Load up about five rounds of that maximum pressure published book load in the exact same hulls you are using for your experimental loads. Match the type and number of loads so far for sure, better yet if they came from the same box, bag, or lot. Fire them in the same gun and then compare bulges. If your experimental loads have bigger bulges --- BACK OFF!

As far as Chrony protection --- 1/4" to 1/2" steel plate mounted at a 45-degree angle leaning so that a hit gets deflected upwards is much better then ply-wood. Believe me I know --- You want to make tommygirlMT sweat? Tell her you want proof of a slugs true B.C. and suggest she get it be measuring the difference in velocity over range which involves putting her Chrony down range to measure the velocity way out there. Believe me looking through your sights at that expensive piece of equipment way out there knowing if your shot hits more then 4" low it's toast --- that will make anyone sweat. It will make you cry too when you do mess up the shot --- unless you have a tough enough sheild, and plywood ain't it.

[phaessler]

Believe me I know --- You want to make tommygirlMT sweat? Tell her you want proof of a slugs true B.C. and suggest she get it be measuring the difference in velocity over range which involves putting her Chrony down range to measure the velocity way out there. Believe me looking through your sights at that expensive piece of equipment way out there knowing if your shot hits more then 4" low it's toast --- that will make anyone sweat. It will make you cry too when you do mess up the shot --- unless you have a tough enough sheild, and plywood ain't it.

Well Tommygirl or whoever, I feel plywood would be just fine for muzzle velocity on a slug, and would more than suffice to stop a wad, especially at 10 feet, the wads are recovered between 20-25 feet consistently. Muzzle velocity and downrange velocity are two different animals, and you can get one from the other with a little math. I would never think of stting up a down range chrony, especially when operating on a budget.
As far as pressure signs go, I belive I have plenty of experience in pressure signs, MAX loads, and sticky bolts etc etc etc. Stating a mere observation here seems to set off alarms of intelligencec and I feel if you are playing the game, you need to know the rules, and the consequences.
The 50gn data as I have already stated is for use in a tapered hull, of which is known to be less pressure efficient than a straight hull. I would really like to see more people out here post more tangible data and less assumptions/statements.
Enough of my rant.
Have loaded up the next batch of 44, 45, and 46 gn this evening, hopefully the rain will let up enough to test tommorrow.
Will keep y'all posted.

Pete

[peter nap]

Have loaded up the next batch of 44, 45, and 46 gn this evening, hopefully the rain will let up enough to test tommorrow.
Will keep y'all posted.

Pete

Good Luck Pete. I was thinking of hunting tomorrow and that usually means rain.

Forecast is for clear though.

If I get a chance this weekend, I may give 2400 another try. Ed Hubel had ignition problems but Turbo didn't...if I remember right.