Lyman 525 & NEF UltraSLug

[phaessler]

Ok, here are some pictures of what I am using.
1) a glue filled Lyman slug. Hot glue trimmed flush, with minimal air pockets.
Centerfire shooting breeds habits I cant break I am sorry, I weigh everything and seperate them out religiously.


2) the seals and wad cup showing how it gets inserted.


3) an assembled round


The slugs are cast out of wheel weights, dropped onto a wet towel. I have learned to make alot (150+) of anything you want to test when it comes to casting.
I have no idea the hardness, and the only one I ever recovered was from an old stump, to deformed to tell anything , nor did it matter at the time

Ths standard book load shot ok out of my Mossberg 500 w/rifled barrel, but no where near as accurate as the USH seems to be. Even with shimming the mossberg.

Trying to plan some range time to get the 100yd results up. Hunting and holidays are getting in the way.

Hope all have a great Thanksgiving.
Pete

[big boar]

Phaessler, great photos. I just use the WAA12R wads as is, did you find better results using an aftermarket seal? If you're already using the glue in the base why bother with the extra work modifying the gas seal? Thanks a lot for the info on the glue, I'm going to try that as I just cast some this morn. I'll load 1/2 with glue and 1/2 w/o just to give a fair trial. Happy Thanksgiving to all south of the boarder.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Phaessler the OB 12 gas seal where can I buy them from.
Thanks
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

I have tried alot of 2 3/4" combinations, and was actually interested in getting the wad/slug package out past the "throat" of this particular barrel. I had feared the throat was stripping the wad from the slug, letting the slug bounce down the barrel, thus killing accuracy.
So I switched to a 3"hull, where the crimp would open at the throat. In doing so I was also switching from a tapered hull (AA's) to a straight hull (Fiocchi). The tapered hull wads have a small base seal diameter and allow a considerable amount of blow-by, i.e. lost pressures. when used in a straight case. The straight case wads/seals are tight to seat in a tapered hull and my raise pressures to rapidly.
I also switched from the cushion bases of the AA type wads as they were sort of weak and appeared to collapse to the point of failure (total compression) on the recovered wads, and in doing so I noticed also the cushion column also compress at an angle, not squarely against the wad cup. The gas seal / flex seal combination I am trying now allows me to get the "stack height" necessary for a good crimp, and fits seemingly well inside the hull. It also seems to apply the pressure/force of the powder squarely to the bottom of the slug, which hopefully will transmit to straight and true flight.
Noting also there are smaller holes in the lower left of most of my 50yd targets, .30-.40 dia, which I believe to be the glue which was ejected from the slug bottom. Slug recovery at this point is futile, and bad enough I spend 10 minutes or so between groups looking for wads.
Hope this helps.


The left side wad is a flex seal and whats left of the AA cup. This one was also glue filled and doesnt exhibit the "stuffing" of itself into the rear of the slug.
The right side wad is a std AA red wad leaning to the left shows how deep (approx 0.125") it was forced into the rear of the slug upon firing.
Have alot of these recovered wads and right side is pretty tpical for me when used withoug glue, accuracy is pretty poor. Where as the left wad is fairly recent to include the seal stack and glue, this was recovered from group 3 of the targets on post #1. Both are missing the petals.

Ajay, I picked the seals up from Precision and Ballistic Products, they are made in Italy by Gualdini, just an FYI.

[Duhawki]

I have an Ultraslug in 20 gauge and the Lyman mold for the 350 grain slug that looks just like the heavier one for the 12 gauge. I have not shot any yet. Are any of you guys into 20 gauge?
Regards,
Duhawki

[phaessler]

Hey Duhawki, after seeing how things performs, I am looking for a 20ga now for my son, I would safely assume you could apply these same principles to the 20ga, using the correct/recommended powder charges of course.

Pete

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings and a Happy Thanksgiving to you Phaessler. Can I suggest you please put a thick .250 or .170 darker nitro card between your gas seal and flex seal and then your shot cup and another nitro card of .125 right under your slug to keep the slug from digging into the base of the slug and to help transmit the driving forces of the powder gases evenly to the slugs edges
of the base. This should further shrink your group size and help with accuracy.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Thanks Ajay, but the groups tell all here. I have eliminated the cups being buried into the rear of the slug via hot glue, and its working. I only want to work on the 100yd results now.
Must be why Lee went to a drive key design? spread the force out over the bottom of the slug. Anyone try them yet ?
Also one needs to remember that the wads were using here were designed for shot, and alot of the surface area inside the "shot cup" bottom is occupied by shot, thus spreading the load out {At least in theory}
I have abandoned the use of nitro cards unless I get drastic failures in accuracy at this point. I do have an interest in felt wads though....replacing the order of the gas seal/felx seal combo with a flex seal/felt wad combo.
Really sidetracked on this project can you tell....waiting on a few molds for some centerfire stuff has put me on a tangent.
Funny thing is I put a "cheap"($30) scope on and it still is working after 120 rounds of shooting, it has far exceeded its expected life span. Probably just jinxed it though.

Pete

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Phaessler I do have the Lee Drive key slug mould but since the time I bought it I have failed to cast a single slug with ww as it would not release it. I have tried smoking it. Last time I polished the base pins but did not bother to cast yet. Its a 1oz 12 gauge mould.
What brand and model scope you have?
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Ajay, have you tried the Frankford Arsenal release agent? A little-dab-will-do-ya. I am curious to know how they perform, as opposed to an oversive airgun pellet.

Pete

[turbo1889]

I have an Ultraslug in 20 gauge and the Lyman mold for the 350 grain slug that looks just like the heavier one for the 12 gauge. I have not shot any yet. Are any of you guys into 20 gauge?
Regards,
Duhawki

Hey Duhawki, after seeing how things performs, I am looking for a 20ga now for my son, I would safely assume you could apply these same principles to the 20ga, using the correct/recommended powder charges of course.

Pete

I wish that were true, IME (In My Experience) the Lyman 20ga. wad-slug is a whole different kind of animal then the Lyman 12ga. slug. I couldn't get the 20ga. version to settle down and group tight for me no matter what I tried. And believe me I tried every trick in the book as far as what's recommended for the 12ga. version.

If you want to load a wad slug style slug load in your 20ga. the Lyman #575494 mold or the Lee 575-470M mold are your best choices.

The Lyman #575494 weighs in at 315 grains or so, which means you can load it on top of a 28ga. nitro card or two inside a Fed 20S1 wad with the same load data as for the Lyman 350gr. 20ga. wad-slug without a hitch as lower weight means lower pressure levels --- as an added bonus it also works out of smooth bore 20ga. guns. as it is naturally stable in flight and flies nose first just like a foster slug.

The Lee 575-470M gets loaded the same way only you use 1-1/8 20ga. lead shot field load data to load that one. Or better yet work up some loads with 2400 powder starting charge being about 35 grains and you can usually carefully work that up another 5 grains at least with the never exceed usually being about 45 grains depending on exactly what combination of components you use. That one like the Lyman 20ga. wad-slug mold is a rifled barrel only proposition because it does need the rifling to stabilize but it stabilizes and flies a lot straighter then the Lyman 20ga. wad-slug.

Or best of all just order yourself up a 20ga. full bore solid mold from mountainmolds.com and get the best possible performance from a slug gun for deer out there. A 20ga. NEF-USH with full bore cast solids that look like overgrown revolver boolits on top of a full load of Reloader-17 powder in a 3" hull with a short but tight roll crimp will produce one of the flattest shooting and longest possible effective range deer slug guns possible. Doing something similar it's possible to build more powerful loads with the 12ga. But for deer you don't need that much brawn.

For the slug design, 20ga. rifled slug gun bores run between 0.615" to 0.625" with most being on the upper end of that size spectrum. Either slug your bore or order a 0.625" size and don't cast them with anything harder then a WW alloy water dropped. Minimum weight for a good diameter to length ratio (assuming your not going to have the mold hollow pointed by Erik at hollowpointmold.com after MM cuts it) is about 350 grains with an aggressive SWC type shape like the Lyman #575494 has all the way up to a maximum sensible weight of about 500 grains. When designing the mold it's important to leave a "step" on the nose for the roll crimp to tighten up against and not make the nose too long so as to stick out of the end of the hull. The easiest way to make that step with MM's design program is to choose the "Bore Riding Truncated Cone" nose style and then set the bore rider diameter to as low as it will go and the bore riding length to "0.001" (step)" with no crimp groove.

Basically:



And you should end up with something that looks like this:

[phaessler]

Reading Turbo1889's notes here on the 20ga has me intrigued now, I can feel the urge to get one in 20ga, shooting "overgrown revolver boolits", going to make me spend money again , telling you coming here is the worst thing for my allowance.
But I can see a 2400 load would definently be ballistically efficient, not to mention fun, from getting a mold made to figuring out roll crimping.... cany anyone say "Spring Project".

Would even be curious to see if lubing it would be worth anything, tuble lube 20-30 of them things.

Great artwork!!

Pete

[big boar]

Ajay, I've used release stuff in my Lee mold but found that the best way to get it to release was to just keep casting till it gets REAL hot. If you ladle pour just pour over the "stuck" slug and recast. It does take time perhaps 10-12 casts or more but I've found even with my Lyman mold I have to get it really hot to release well.
Phaessler, thanks again for the photos, they really explain well. I'm going to try the glue in the base but think I'll stick with the WAA12R wad as is to see if it prevents ruining the wad. You've got lots of info slug stuff, have you ever thought of using a 20ga in a 12 just using a built up wad to contain the slug? Should work, they do it for muzzle stuffers.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings Big Boar and Phaessler I will try your idea. I had almost given up on it.
I just got a new mold that I am very anxious to try maybe tommorow then I'll give Lee another chance.
Thank you.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[Duhawki]

Thanks for the posts Turbo1889 and Phaessler. I'm not sure why Lyman made a knockoff of an airgun pellet; so, I like the idea of the Lyman 575494 and the Lee 575470, but I'll spend a little bit of time on the Lyman slug. I'm inclined to mold wax pieces to surround the O.D. I'm also inclined to modify the core pin for support of the skirt. I'll be careful not to infringe the Lee patent.
Regards,
Duhawki

[turbo1889]

Thanks for the posts Turbo1889 and Phaessler. I'm not sure why Lyman made a knockoff of an air gun pellet; so, I like the idea of the Lyman 575494 and the Lee 575470, but I'll spend a little bit of time on the Lyman slug. I'm inclined to mold wax pieces to surround the O.D. I'm also inclined to modify the core pin for support of the skirt. I'll be careful not to infringe the Lee patent.
Regards,
Duhawki

The fact that the Lyman 20ga. wad-slug mold is "knockoff of an air gun pellet" is not the problem. Their 12ga. mold is the same way and it works just fine. Where Lyman went wrong with the 20ga. and not the 12ga. is the length to diameter ratio. The 12ga. version is short and squatty and the 20ga. version is long and slender. In order for a hollow base projectile to have natural positive stability in flight certain parameters must be met and if you make it too long and slender with a center of mass that isn't far enough forward the proverbial turd hits the proverbial fan.

Now, one could say, "So what, if it's fired out of a rifled slug barrel it positive natural stability don't mean squat one way or the other." For a tight fitting full bore diameter slug or a tight fitting strong thick sabot that is true. However, a shot wad, even the Federal brand ones which are about the best of the best for wad-slugs still make a very pore sabot. It is entirely possible for a slug designed like the Lyman with only two contact points at the front and the rear combined with imperfections in the wad used and the fact it’s made of fairly soft plastic to always be just a little bit of kilter inside the wad during almost every shot. For a slug with natural positive stability the resulting potential inaccuracies from such a situation get off-set by the fact that the slug will self stabilize during flight and "the wrinkles get ironed out" so to speak. Now if you lose that natural positive stability then the little inconsistencies don't get ironed out and show up on the target board.

That is why the Lyman 575494 shots better inside a 20ga. shot wad then the 20ga. Lyman over grown air gun pellet wad-slug. The reason the Lee 575-470M works is because unlike the Lyman it doesn't have just two contact points front and rear but nice flat sides that contact the wad all the way from nose to tail and help keep things lined up better. It also has more natural stability then the Lyman wad-slug. It's doesn't have positive stability like the Lyman 575494 but it isn't near as bad as the Lyman 20ga. wad-slug mold.

Long story short, knowing what I know now, if I were to start fiddling with the Lyman 20ga. wad slug right now I'd try to find a way to fill up the dip in the middle and make the sides flat all the way from the nose to the tail. This could be done by boring out the mold but then it would make the slug much heavier. Maybe a thin walled length of metal tubing where the inside diameter was a tight slip fit for the Lyman 20ga. slug and then drill a small hole in the side. Put the slug inside so the hole lined up with the wasp waist of the Lyman slug and then inject epoxy into the hole with a syringe and let it dry and then use a dowel and mallet to pop the slug out of the tube by a few raps applied to its flat nose. Use a small nail to clean the injection hole and then repeat.

Of course one could do a permanent fix by having a custom mold cut by one of the custom mold cutting outfits that do hollow base nose pore molds and keep the same basic "over grown air gun pellet" design but do it right this time and make it short and squatty like the Lyman 12ga. version is. I have no doubt that such a version would then equal the 12ga. version in accuracy provided the same tricks of the trade were applied as is done with the 12ga. version.

Just some ramblin thoughts.

[big boar]

Turbo, if the Lyman 20 is "long and slender" AND it has a hollow base, how could it NOT have a "weight forward" centre of mass. If you take a length of lead and make a hollow base in it does it not follow that it MUST have a centre of mass towards the solid (front)end? Just a question, sounds like you really know yer stuff. Thanks, Brian

[turbo1889]

It's not that it doesn't have a weight forward design, it's that the longer you make a projectile compared to it's diameter the more extreme the weight forward design needs to be to make it have natural positive stability.

Actually that's not completely true. A ration of length to diameter of 1:1 is the definition of the point of neutral stability. The farther you go from that point in either direction (longer and more slender or even shorter and even stubbier) the more extreme your weight forward design needs to be. For example lets say in a 1:1 projectile a 60% nose heavy configuration will produce adequate stability (center of balance is at 60% of length measuring from the base/tail of the projectile). Now let’s lengthen that projectile out to a 1.25:1 or shorten it to a 1:1.25 projectile. Now our 60% weight distribution is no longer adequate now we need something more like 70% nose heavy. Take it even further to 1.5:1 or 1:1.5 and even that isn't enough. Get up to 2:1 or 1:2 and beyond and things get really dicey unless you start adding extra drag fins that stick out beyond the main projectiles diameter (like a rocket or an arrow). Those numbers aren’t exact and they never could be because a lot of other factors come into play as well. But the basic principle applies and I think you get what I'm saying. At a certain point making a completely lead hollow base projectile longer only makes things worse no matter how deep you make the hollow point or thin down the skirt walls. It just doesn't work unless you switch to using a much lower density material for the tail section such as plastic (example attached base wad style slugs).

Since usually people don't attempt to make bullets that are shorter then they are around (think pan-cakes) I usually refer to this as a one way relationship with making the slug longer, but it does apply in both directions and I think you get what I'm saying. Believe me I've fought this factor long and hard with my heavy weight 410 slug experiments and prototype designs.

[BIG GUN]

My standard load in the ultra is a Win. AA with a 525 made of range scrap over 45G of Blue Dot. I get 1-1/2-2min groups but I run a fine wire ss brush down the bore after every round dry to clean out the plastic from the WW12R wad.
The plastic builds up fast and using a solvent liquifies it.
I am using a 4 power Norinco scope and it has survived 100's of rounds.
I have picked up 1250 red wads at various gun shows for around $3.00/250

[phaessler]

Well, got 20 rds loaded of the 3", figured out the primer poket thing pretty quickly , thank goodness, and hopefully going to the range Monday morning. Deer season is in pause mode in my home county, but running full-bore one county over, so might go to the range or might hunt ... oh the choices . Might be hunted out and return to R&D projects by next week.

Sounds good Big Gun, as a former New Englander (CT) I always wondered what Mass residents did for gun shows. I used to travel thru to hunt NH and VT, and never felt easy doing it. I had a Nikon on my Mossberg and it died before the 100rd mark, got a Wally World Tasco on my Ultra, and so far so good.

Pete