Paper Patch angle - 30° or 45°?

[303Guy]

We've discussed tail twisting versus folding but only touched on patch angle. Which is best? Which do you use? Do you roll from right to left or left to right? Why?

[gerrycan]

303Guy,
These are good questions [wrap against the grain ? ]
Also , can anyone post templates for the usual suspects [30 cal /50 cal e.g.] ?
Cheers Gerry

[rhead]

You have to try it in your rifle and see which works the best. There are a lot of angles between 30* and 45* thankfully there are only two directions of twist. The changes on the angle are usually rather subtle. Listen to your rifle when it speaks.

[Digital Dan]

45*, From the bullet base looking forward, the patch should wrap in the same direction as the barrel twist. You have to roll your patch on with the bullet moving in the opposite direction as twist. Patch cut across grain.

Be careful following my advice, I have dyslexia.

[redneckdan]

I haven't noticed a bit of difference as far as accuracy with patch angle. Then again I'm usually shooting off crossed sticks.

[pdawg_shooter]

I use 60* myself. Direction of wrap makes no difference with modern rifling. I cut my patches across the grain for better stretch. Templates only work with one type and weight of paper, cut in the same direction and applied with the same amount of stretch. I have run across different lengths of cut needed with the same brand and weight of paper bot from different lots. Kind of like powder in that respect.

[barrabruce]

Rhead---"Listen to your rifle when it speaks."

Mine just goes boom or maybe BOOM!! sometimes just click if I forget to put a primer in.



I try for the start of the second wrap and the finish to end up opposite each other.

Errr.. The top bit and the bottom bit on oposite sides to one another...Yeah something like that.

But then again I'm thankfull of 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" inch groups at 100 yds at the moment.

Iv'e found the hard way of learning this.

I now have many loads my gun doesn't like!!!

Iv'e tried talking to it but it don't say much back.
Even broke down in tears of frustration trying to get it to do what I want.

Must be female. One word from me and it does what it likes.


Barra

Loosing the Psychological battle with an inanimate object!!

[docone31]

My patch angles are pretty much between 45* and whatever. As long as they cross on two wraps, or three wraps, it is a go with me. My sizing lays it down pretty flat.
If I were going long distance with it, that might be a different story. I am at 200yds and less. Over that, I could see where the slight upset at the seam might make a difference.

[powderburnerr]

50 degrees seems to hold tighter on the bullet when wrapped dry as compared with the flatter angles...you may get different resultsit is what I have found......Dean

[montana_charlie]

Do you roll from right to left or left to right? Why?

You have to roll your patch on with the bullet moving in the opposite direction as twist.

Direction of wrap makes no difference with modern rifling.

DD,
If you have a bullet at the breech end, pointed toward the muzzle of a right-twist barrel, and you think the top of the wrap should be going over to the left of the bullet...I agree with you.
Looking at this bullet from the base, we could say it's wrapped counterclockwise.
As the bullet hits the lands, they will tend to tighten the paper on the bullet...rather than want to unroll it.

pds,
I wonder how you perceive modern rifling to be different from older(?) rifling when it comes to picking a patch wrapping direction.

If I patched opposite....the patch would have a tendency to unwind traveling up the bore!!

In Rick's video, he is patching for a right-hand twist, in a barrel with modern rifling, on a Sharps .50/90 rifle.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...511#post713511

I try for the start of the second wrap and the finish to end up opposite each other.

Errr.. The top bit and the bottom bit on oposite sides to one another...Yeah something like that.

Do you mean that you can see the angle of the inner wrap on one side of the bullet, and the finishing angle of the outer wrap on the opposite side?

That would mean you have two layers of paper on one half of the bullet...and one layer on the other half.
In other words, one and a half wraps instead of two.

Do I understand you correctly?

CM

[eli]

Newbe question here but, if you slug your bore and use the angle of the groove to trim your pp, would that not be the best angle to use?

Eli

[Lead pot]

CM.

A .50 Shiloh has a left hand twist.

I use a 50°-52° taper that was what Sharps used. I don't see any difference between left hand or right hand wrap.
I kind of scratch my head when some one will say a patch might un wrap if it is patched in the direction of twist. how can it when it has thousands of pounds pressure forcing it outwards during the big bang.

[bcp477]

I've tried both 30 and 45 degrees.....didn't seem to make any difference.....so I just stick with 30. I learned to wrap with the rifling......and I've never tried the other way.....I don't see the point. It ain't broke......so I'm not gonna try to fix it.

[longbow]

I guess I'll toss in what little I have to offer here too.

I read that it is best to wrap so that the open edge of the paper faces the direction of boolit rotation to help it separate. Also that would be tightening the paper as rifling spun the boolit. But as noted, it is being squeezed awful hard so how could it wrap tighter or unwrap?

Since it seems to work, that's how I do it. As bcp477 said ~ "If it ain't broke..."

I doubt exact edge angle matters but I am guessing it is best if it straddles a land or two to ensure sealing (a paper seam lined ip in a groove "might" leak).

I have also read that the rifling has to slice the paper to get good separation and while I can't argue the logic, my .44 Marlin with microgroove rifling likes a boolit of 0.421" patched to 0.432"+. With a bore diameter of about 0.425" the rifling is not going to slice that paper.

I tried larger boolits in it with thinner paper but it didn't work as well.

I am no pro at this though.

I think there are lots of ways to get it to work and those fellas that poke one boolit after another through the same hole work harder than I do and pay attention to little details. For them direction of wrap and exact angles may make enough difference to worry about.

FWIW

Longbow

[montana_charlie]

CM.

A .50 Shiloh has a left hand twist.

Then the video must dipict the patching of his .45 caliber bullet. In any case, I asked him (in that thread) which way his twist ran and he said 'right-hand'.
You can see it there, for yourself.

Was Rick mistaken?
CM

[Lead pot]

I don't know CM,

I have talked to rick several times and I'm not sure if he has a .50-90 Shiloh or a C-Sharps.

As far as the taper of the patch shoot what ever you want. Make sure the short tag end is at the ogive, not the long end especially if your using a 45° or 30°. The 50° stays best for me with out loosening up when I carry the bullets in a belt.

Long Bow.

I have a .444 Marlin with micro groove and It gives me fits with lead or PP bullets that I resigned myself swaging jacketed bullets for it that shoot very good in it and it dropped a lot of Michigan Deer.

by the way those saying they punch one hole shots all day long might be stretching that rubber band some or shooting that from the 25 yard line.

I have shot some very good holes from the 200 yd but they are seldom coming.

[docone31]

Hehehe, I cannot fire one hole shots if I put the muzzle over the first hole!
I like that.
I think, as I do smokeless also, as long as there is no gap from the cartridge to the rifleing, the patch will not roll back during engraveing. That would make an upset and affect the trajectory long run.
I have been lucky. My patches have worked out. The .303 British I had to work for, my .30s, I just sized .309 and they worked.
I like paper patching.

[barrabruce]

Montana Charlie.
This is what I mean.
This is a folded Cig paper 2x wrap.
This one over lapps a bit thou.
When wet they are translusant.
I belive they should be a gap of 1 1/2 Thickness paper on the anlges lining up.
That would take the bump off the paper on the "seam".
This has Turtle wax hard car polish on it. Hence cow ****ty green color on the top section.
This seems to harden the fragile paper up a bit and I don't get leading.
Well a grey wash up the bore for the first few inches ..but not smears or such.
Hope it helps.
I haven't worked out a way of carrying my lubed or patched boolets get when/if I ever get to go hunting but thats a nother story!!

Hope it helps
Barra

[303Guy]

... use the angle of the groove to trim your pp, would that not be the best angle to use?

eli

I have tried that, thinking that the lap joint impression would lie in the same direction as the rifling impressions. It makes for a very easy mating of the start and tail of the patch with it being possible to blend the gap away altogether. But .... the problem is to keep the patch rolled on. The angled patch is held secure by the trailing corner being folded, twisted or 'fold crimped'. (Some papers can actually be crimped over the base).

A 'fold crimped' patch.

To solve the problem I found a paper glue that would hold the patch on with a 'sliver' applied under the trailing edge. the glue I used would soak away in the wet paper but keep the patch on securely without interfering with the patch disintegration at the muzzle.

Thing is, when folks are getting top accuracy with the angled patch and even with a small gap in the 'joint', it seemed kinda pointless messing with the glue. But it was fun testing and did teach me a few things about patching. (Like finding a way to blend the start and tail joint - and that was with a tapered boolit).

The line is the ege of the patch.
Note how the edge has taken a 'shape'. There is no gap between start and trailing edge. The angle is the rifling twist angle (or was before it got a bit bent). There was a small and uneven gap initially but by rolling in a particular way stretches the paper were desired until the gap is closed.

[pdawg_shooter]

Early rifling intended for paper patch ammo had very shallow rifling. The wrap was put on in the direction of the rifling to help the paper un-wrap when leaving the muzzle. The rifling was not deep enough to cut the paper.