Need some '03 help

[Bug]

Gents,
I have been thinking about a rifle dedicated to open sights, and cast bullets. I've considered quite a few, and argued the pros and cons of each. Just never stepped down onto the playing field.
Well, I did this last week (stepped in it, that is). Was visiting a bud, and he made me an offer I couldn't refuse. Picked up a 1903 Springfield that has been "sporterized". I'm sure some would say it has been Bubba-ized, but I think it's gonna suit me to a T.
It already has a Lyman peep on it - model 57, I think. The front sight is issue, which is a small problem. The dang thing is only about 0.050" wide. It looks like a toothpick stuck in the top of a fence post! I'd sure like something around 0.075-0.100". Might not be quite as precise, but durn sure be much more seeable. I thought about building it up with JB Weld, but that seems like a cop-out. Are there any available sight/bases available? Can't hurt to ask.
The next thing is gonna sound kinda flakey, I think. I need some suggestions for loading a 30-06! Never loaded for one! I've owned a couple, but just never bothered to load for them, as the cartridge really never interested me. I just always wanted something everybody else DIDN'T have. And this will be with cast bullets, natch. Eventually I'll get around to slugging the bore, but I'm gonna start out with .310". I gotta make this thing go Bang!
Right now I have the RCBS 150 FN mold, and their 180 (311467 equiv.) too. Might pick up another if I see a real need. Powders shouldn't be a problem. I have the usual IMR & Hodgdon numbers, plus surplus WC820, AA Data 86, 7383, 4895, and 5010.
If you can lend a hand here, it will be appreciated.
I started out with the 180. Loaded 20 rounds of C.E. Harris' load of 13gr Red Dot just for familiarization. And the Lee manual's cast loads for 4350 and 4831 were only one grain apart, so I loaded a ladder test with Data 86, that should run 1700-1900fps. I'll shoot these up at fifty yards and see how they do. What I'd eventually like to wind up with is a 200 yard hunting load for our smallish whitetails and maybe not-so-small hogs. If I can get the 180 up to 2000-ish fps, it should do fine... Course more is better. Any Idea how fast I might get the 150? FWFL, of course. Think 3-4" at 200 is doable? That'd sure make me smile!
Y'all help me out here. I'm sure you guys can save me a large dose of heartburn, not to mention a few pounds of components. Thanks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Bug.

[Char-Gar]

Do you have an 03 or an 03A3? It makes a difference when it comes to changing out front sights. The 03 has a front sight band with a dovetail and changing sights is fairly simple. the 03A3 has a front sight band that uses pin in blades.

There was a time when replacement sight and or/blades were common items in gun stores, but not any more. However they show up fairly often on Ebay.

Before you get too set on changing out the military front sight, shoot it for a while. Those sights make darn good target sights that are easy to see on the range. Put a dab of colored fingernail paint on them and they will do in the hunting field.

[Char-Gar]

Oh yes... 3 to 4 inch 200 hard group are very possible with a good Springfield. However it all depend on the how the individual rifle is set up and the loads.

As far as loads go it sound like you are on the right track. 2K fps with good accuracy is very much within the realm of possibility in the 30-06. Here again, it depends on the bullet, alloy etc. etc.

Sounds to me like you are on the right track.

[Bug]

Chargar,
Thanks. It is a 1903, and not an 03A3. Has the blade pinned into a dovetail base. I looked at the dovetail, but due to the overall height on that puppy, I don't have much hope of finding a sight off something else that would be compatible. That thing is TALL! Somewhere in the neighborhood of .680" from the bottom of the dovetail to the top of the blade.
I'll agree it will probably be a pretty good target sight, but I was just looking for a bit more width. I really didn't want to cut the blade channel wider, and replace the blade.
Come to think of it, maybe I could soft-solder a wider piece of stock to the rear face. That wouldn't look too gooby if it were done neatly, and it could be undone, if needed.
I've pretty much been a casual shooter with cast in rifles. Never messed with doing too much with different alloys. Wheelweights have generally sufficed. It's soft enough not to shatter, and hard enough to hold up to mid-range (30-30) cartridges. Recon I might need to harden them up a bit? I don't have a tester... Yet. But, been considerin givin Gussy some bid'ness.
That brings up another Q. I've been running the 150 FP bullets outa my H&R 30-30 to 2300-2400 range, with good accuracy. Think I could do this with the '06? Or, is there some reason I can't?

[Bob S]

Look a few posts down. There is some discussion of loads for the '03. I have a 200 yard group posted there also.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=5983

At one time, Lyman and Redfield both made globe sights to fit the unique dovetail on the 03 front fixed base. Thay show up on Ebay fairly regular, but prices can get ugly. You can use the garden-variety Lyman 17A globe sight that is still available, if you can mill or file a standard 3/8" dovetail in an 03A3 front sight base. The 03 fixed base for the front sight and the 03A3 will interchange: the only difference is the position of the pin. You will need to file a notch for the pin in the correct location of the opposite spline/key. To fit the 03A3 front sight on the 03 barrel, you have to file a small notch in the center of the integral spline.

I have made several front sights for 03's and 03A3 out of sheet metal joist hangers. The metal is about .070 thick, and by the time you stone the surface to remove the plating, you end up with a blade that is about .060" wide, just a bit wider than the .050" of the issued blade. The part that seats in the moveable base has to be .050, of course, but you can get creative with what sticks up above. You could also get a reproduction of the USMC-issue front sight blade, which is .100" wide, or twice the width of the Army-issue blade. It was also higher, to make the battle sight zero at a more reasonable 250 yards (compared to 547 yards for the Army-issue).

Resp'y,
Bob S

[Char-Gar]

The 03 front sight does not have a pin. In the front of the sight band there is a small screw that goes through the band and into the sight hold it in place. Remove this screw and the front sights drifts out.

As I said, there are repacement front sights that fit into the 03 dovetail that can be found on Ebay. I have several of the Redfield Soughdough front sights that replace the issue front sight. I am going to hang on to them.

I also have one of the Redfield Globe (with inserts) that fit into the 03 band. I picked it up on ebay for $30.00 a few months ago. I have also see these sights go for double that. It just depends on the day and who is looking for one.

[Bob S]

The 03 front sight does not have a pin.

The 03 fixed base does indeed have a pin. It is on the back of the base and engages a spline which is milled intergral to the barrel. The 03 fixed base has a female dovetail; the 03 moveable base fits into this dovetail. When the rifles were targeted at the armory, the moveable base could be drifted to get the the no-wind zero at 200 meters (yes, meters) to coincide with the Mechanical Zero (MZ) of the rear sight. Once that was extablished, then the front of the fixed base was drilled through into the moveable base, and the locking screw was inserted. The 03 front sight blade is pinned into the moveable base and can be removed or replaced by drifting the pin out. Back in the days when 03's were available cheaply (50's and 60's), and users wanted to use them as-is for hunting, it was common practice to replace the 03 blade with an 03A3 blade, which was considerably higher, and would make the 03 battle sight zero at about 150 yards with the usual hunting loads. The 03A3 blade had to be filed a bit to fit the 03 moveable base, but that was a no-brainer.

Graphic illustrates the difference between the blades:



On the left is 03A3 blade, "A" height; on the right, an 03 blade, and nif you look close you can see the .400 stamping, which was the actual height.

Next pic is an 03A3 front sight assembly with a special high front sight that I made for a guy that couldn't get a 200 yard zero with an "A" blade. The 03A3 did not need the complication of a moveable base for the front sight, as the rear sight is mounted on a dovetail on the receiover bridge, and could be moved left/right to establish the no-wind zero by either firing or bore-sighting. The rear sight base was then fixed with a set-screw initially, which was found to be inadequate. Sights on later rifles used the set screw and were also staked. The set screw was then superfluous, and was eliminated entrirely when existing stocks of rear sight bases were used up.



Note the hole in the middle at the base. The pin that goes in that hole engages a notch in the removeable key set into the 03A3 barrel. Once the pin is removed, the whole assembly then drifts off the muzzle end of the barrel. The only difference between this set-up and the 03 fixed base is that the pin on the 03 fixed base is at the back of the base, where the pin on the 03A3 base is in the middle. There was insufficient material under the dovetail of the 03 fixed base for the pin. I don't have a file pic of the 03 fixed base, 'cuz I thought I'd never need one, but I guess I should take one. The bases can be interchanged by simply making sure that there is a notch in the correct place (middle or back) of the removeble key on an 03A3 barrel, or the integral spline on an 03 barrel.

Some late Remington 03 barrels have the removable key instead of the fixed spline, but that's another story ....

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bob S]

This picture shows one of my "cast bullet" front sights, also a salvaged windage yoke with a binding screw to lock the elevation adjustment. The front sight blade in this 03A3 base is very short, so I can get a 200 yard zero without the rear sight being cranked up to 800 yards, which gives a lousy stock weld. This blade is about .080" wide, and although not apparent in this view, it has the undercut profile of the USMC sight.



The reason for the short front sight will be apparent in the next pic. The first shot is the low one, fired with the issue rear sight at 700 yards. The "group" was fired with the issued rear sight moved up one "notch" to 750.



The "notches" are regulated for M2 ball amunition at 50 yard increments in range, which means the "value" of each elevation "notch" varies from about 1-1/2 MOA on the little end to about 4 MOA on the big end. This not really conducive for "match" shooting unless you are shooting on the coarse SR target used for "as-issue" CMP matches, then you can live with it (you *have* to, as the rules do not allow any modifications to the rifle, including sights). Since our friend Bug has a Lyman (?) rear sight, this is not an issue for him.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Char-Gar]

Bob...You are of course correct...I was posting about how the blade was held in the band and not how the band is held on the barrel. Both the 03 and 03A3 bands are held in place with pins. The 03A3 sight blade is also pinned into the band. Of course you know this.... Sorry, I was not trying to challenge your knowledge. I guess, I misread your post. "Son, what we have here is a failure to communicate"...Cool Hand Luke.

I did not know the USMC uses a thicker front sight...Can you point me to where I can get these critters?

Again, thank you for your very useful posts on this subject. I was dialed in on front sights blades and not front sight bands. I should have given the subject more thought.

[oksmle]

Bug .... I simply epoxied two very thin steel shims to the front sight blade. One on either side. Then I dressed the excess down to the original's contour & cold blued them. Didn't even remove the sight from the rifle & from five feet away you can't tell any work at all was done to the sight. At the same time I enlarged the rear sight hole to give me a bit more light.... Works good....
oksmle

[Bob S]

Chargar:

No sweat. I figured if a knowledgable guy like you misunderstood what I was trying to say, there must be others, too.

The guy that makes the repro USMC sights is Bill Benton. I'll have to look for his contact info. You can get the front sight only, or the "set" of the front blade and the elevation peep slide, which has only a single peep, .100 diameter instead of the small peep, two notches and triangle that the Army geniuses put on the original.

The curious thing about the USMC sights is that the Marines never made a modified slide cap, which carries the battle sight "notch". So you have a skinny notch on the back designed for the .050" front blade, and a .100" front blade. I could never make the combination work, even when my eyes were young. With the larger rear peep on the ladder, that high wide front blade is a godsend, though.

The other curious thing is that the Marine Corps didn't use their "proprietary" sights for very long. I had a friend who enlisted in the Corps in 1924, and retired in 1954. Obviously, he had a long-term relationship with the '03, including the Bananna Wars of the 20's, early WW II, and a few years on the USMC Team, pre-WW II. He told me he never saw the "USMC sights", just the regular issue stuff.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bob S]

Chargar et al:

The guy who makes the repro USMC sights is Bill Bentz (I was close!):

"Contact Bill Bentz at dcm450shtr@earthlink.net , he will answer all of your questions regarding size, shape etc. he will also sell you a very fine reproduction USMC front sight or front and rear set."

I think S&S Firearms in NY also carries repros, probably made by Mr. Bentz.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Char-Gar]

Bob...I will contact that fellow and get one of those front sights. I am in the process of building a NRA Sporter style Springfield. I started with a Smith-Corona barreled action that had the barrel shortened. I am installing a new S-C 4 groove barrel and have changed out the 03A3 band for an 03 to make it easier to change front sights. As stated, I have several to choose from and will probably uses them all before I settle. The USMC will give me another choice.

The rear sight is a long slide Lyman 48. I may or may not grind off the rear sight dovetail/lug. I want to shoot it first a while before making that decision. If makes a nice study place for the rear sight arm if I don't need to go lower with the elevation.

The stock is a georgous piece of full fiddle back claro walnut from Great American Gunstocks.

I had the dickens of a time getting all of the parts, with the barrel band being the hardest. I managed to come up with two. One was an original M2/sporter band and the other was an arsenal reshapped Enfield for the old T model Springfield target. It is the same size as the M2 but more sturdy without the rib. This is the one that is going on the rifle.

I spent hours hand filing and polishing the tool marks out of the action and have a good milled 03 trigger guard and floor plate.

I have elected to work over a military trigger instead of installing a Timmy.

Over the years, I have built up several Springfield and this will be my last one. should be a cast bullet shooting jessie. It will be finished by the end of this year.

[Bob S]

Chargar:

Good luck on that project, and be sure to post some pix when it's complete!

My "NRA Sporter" is still a bunch of parts. I don' think I'm lacking anything, other than time to assemble it. I also want to do a T type repro, and I think I have all the parts for that as well.

The band for the T rifles is pretty big and might give you a huge gap around an issue barrel for the "sporter". I am going to use a Krag rifle band. The barrel cut is only slightly larger than the original sporter band, so it gives enough clearance so the barrel is not "trapped", but not so much as to make it unsightly. The original .30 Sporter barrels were made with the same contour as the .22 RF barrels, so they are just a bit fatter than the Service .30 barrels. I thought the Krag band made a nice compromise, as I did not care for the original band, either. At the time I started collecting parts, Krag bands complete with swivel and nice bluing could be had for a song ... now that The Masses have "discovered" the Krags and Springfield, parts prices have gone out of sight and availablility is spotty at best. ::sigh::

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Char-Gar]

Bob..The type T is identical in internal dimensions to the M2/Sporter. Of course those rifles barrels where heavier than the issue GI. There is enough wood in the stock to adjust when and how the band sits. I don't think there will be a huge gap, there might be a small one, but that is fine with me as I really don't want the band bearing down on the barrel. Here are my steps..

1) Inlet the barreled action into the wood and shoot the rifle. I intend to glass bed the metal, but I will shoot it first..who knows?

2) Glass bed the barreled action and shoot and work out any problems if they come up.

3) When the rifles is shooting right, then I will install the barrel band and see if that causes any issues. If it does I will work them out.

4) Then comes the final shapping and sanding and finishing of the stock.

5) Last step is to finish the metal.

I guess it is the German DNA in me, but I like to do these things in a series of steps, so if a problem raises it's head, I know where it is and don't have to consider all the various possibilities.

When it is all done, I will post some targets. Then I will finish my other project, a Euro style sporter built around a minty BRNO Persian 98/29 barreld action...slim stock, schnable forend tip, butter knife bolt handled and all that jazz. I have all of the parts for that project, just have to put them together.

After that, I am done with rifle building. I will just burn powder and push lead down barrels until they cart me off to the "Home". There is no way I can wear out all the great rifles I have in six more lifetimes.

[Antietamgw]

I have one in the works as well, been picking up the pieces over the last few years. The idea started with a low number cobbled up sporter from a pawn shop. The longslide 48 and right 17 front sight caught my eye. Then found it had NRA marked bottom metal. The wood was truly crappy but I had some other less crappy cut down wood so I used it. Though worn and tired it shot 311291 and 311299 into 2" at 100 yds with 4198. A trade with a friend got me a late SA '03 bbld. action. A fella on ebay had a new douglas barrel contoured like an '03, threaded and deep chambered. A spare like new longslide 48 and Lyman 17 came from somewhere. Another friend came up with a cut down C stock and '03 handguard. I'm ready to build something! All I need now is an '03A3 handguard and a rear ring. Why do we do this stuff when a new Savage 110 will shoot like a champ and you can have it tomorrow? These parts have been laying around living in sin long enough. Reading this thread was just the boot I needed to start on this.

[Bug]

WOOOHOOO!!!
I took the old war horse to the range today. To say I'm Impressed, would be the understatement of the year!
As to the front sight. You can see it has a pin through the base, holding the blade. Also has the screw hole in the front of the base. I just can barely see a pin holding the band on the barrel, due to refinishing.


I did some prelim shooting@ 50. Wound up taking .050-.060" off the top of the front sight, so I could get a zero with the peep snugged down close to the rear bridge. Dang thing seemed to want to shoot. got a couple 1 1/2 - 2" groups with 13gr Red Dot. Had to go to the 200yd range for another rifle, so I shot all the AA Data 86 - extruded loads over there. I received the shock of a lifetime! an honest 3 1/2 X 4 1/2 inch cluster of seven shots, after re-zeroing. The circle is just about 4 1/2 inches. The loads fired had a spread of three grains in 1gr steps.


I don't know if I can see any better than that. I'll have to do some target manipulation, to see if I can get the sight picture any better.

I just might not oughta mess with anything!

[Char-Gar]

Bug... Sounds like you are good to go... I will bet with some tinkering you can shrink those groups. These Springfield dearly love to be fead lead.

[sundog]

Yup, they like lead! Some targets.

I've shot many sub 2" groups in matches with a couple of rack grade 03A3s and cast. What a hoot! Don't get sub 2" all the time, but the capability is always there.

Here's a sporter what shoots purdy good, too - sporter.

It's been bedded since that web page was done, and it shoots BETTER now than then, if you can believe that. It's not real picky either. btw, that's a National Ordnance receiver.

Also have a Rock Island (high number) in a stock just like the scoped sporter, with a HS bbl, but it wears Ly target sights front and rear. It's a hummer, too!

Here's something I did that I am pleased with. The bbl on the scoped sporter had a terrible complexion, but the bore is fantastic. Made the whole rifle look really homely - just kinda half finished. Hmmmm, says I, how do a poor country boy make this ole gal at least presentable when she goes out? Flat black extreme high temp exhaust manifold paint - a couple coats. Really looks good. Not appropriate for a nice wood stock, but works good when dressed all in black. Gotta love them 03s! sundog

[Larry Gibson]

Another option for '03s are the match rifles sights that were used with Lyman 48s. Below are the sights on my M1903A3 National Match Type II I built (except I used an '03 action). The Lyman 48 is the long slide with 1/4 MOA adjustments. The front is a standard '03 fron sight base with the Lyman aperture front added. It also is a "hammer" and shoots 311299s, 311291s and Lee 312-185s quite well.

Larry Gibson