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Thread: What would General Custer do?

  1. #81
    Boolit Master
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    Well this is an excellent thread with much useful information.

    I can add that some breechloaders and repeaters were issued with a chamber, and I suppose throat, cleaning tool to be used in thefield when fouling began to build up enough to hamper loading. The tool was shaped like a chambering reamer only made from bronze rather than steel.
    water was poured through the bore from the open breech and the tool inserted and given a few turns to scrape away fouling.

    The British at Isandwana discovered to their misfortune that the Martini Henry rifles could begin to jam after two dozen or so volleys. They'd began firing at extreme range so by the time the Zulu closed to close quarters most of the muskets were already out of action or so badly fouled that reloading was difficult.
    This left them facing born and bred spearmen with bayonets, the British were outclassed in such close quarter combat.

    A test using Martini Henry rifles and period style ammo in a testing chamber in which the known humidity and temperature of that day was reproduced confirmed that report.

    As for the arrow heads, the site of the last stand of the Spartans had been subject of debate due to lack of there being any large number of arrowheads at the site, but a few years ago excavation of a nearby well uncovered thousands of arrowheads.
    Its very likely that the bodies of the Spartan warriors were chopped up and thrown down the well, a not uncommon practice in those days and one which Native American war parties are known to have followed in colonial times.
    Scavenging battlefields for any bit of metal was a common practice in ancient times, and is still practiced in the Middle East.
    An entire nation of nomadic scrap metal scavengers was known to roam the battlefields of the Middle East, which is why so few metal artifacts can be found to confirm ancient records of great battles.
    Indians couldn't just stop at a outdoor supply store to pick up a fresh pack of broadheads, they scavenged every arrow and arrowhead they could, it would be more suprising if there had been many arrowheads found there even a day later much less a century or more.

    A common Plains Indian steel arrowhead was actually a small scrapper blade once used to scrape away ink from a page so the paper could be reused. The blades were common and cheap and merchants found they could sell them by the bushel to the Indians.

    Mutilated bodies were sometimes the result of a warior cutting out an arrowhead or even to recover bullets to be melted and recast, or just hammered back in good enough shape to fit down the bore of a muzzleloader.
    Other supposed mutilations would be easy for a Homicide investiigator to recognise as defensive wounds. indians seldom wasted much time cutting up someone once they were dead, but people take a lot of killing when knives and hatchets are the only tool at hand.
    There were of course some specific ritual mutilations like scalping or cutting off a hand. The Zulu split a body open to release the spirit, they believed the swelling up of a decomposing body was the spirit trying to get out, splitting the body was actually a sign of respect for the fallen enemy, they didn't bother to do so if they held the fallen in contempt.

    As for Colt grip screws. Complete disassembly for a through cleaning was common, so screws were made of fairly soft steel. Its a lot easier to replace worn screws than to rethread worn screw holes.
    The threads of my replica colt wore quickly and often backed out under recoil. I replaced these with some identical screws I found at at an old Singer Sewing machine repair shop. So far the replacement screws have given no problems and don't shoot loose.
    A side note is that some quick draw artists found that they could draw a colt so fast that they sheared off the grip frame screws, leaving them holding a grip but no gun. Pistols modified for exhibition fast draw sometimes use special hardened oversized grip frame screws.
    Last edited by Multigunner; 12-16-2009 at 10:02 PM.

  2. #82
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    Multigunner:

    Interesting information about the scraper blades. I had not heard of these before. Do you have a source where I could learn more about them? I have seen a number of lists of trade goods from fur trading posts but I don't recall seeing these mentioned. I have heard of fort blacksmiths making arrowheads from hoop iron taken from barrels.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by hydraulic View Post
    Multigunner:

    Interesting information about the scraper blades. I had not heard of these before. Do you have a source where I could learn more about them? I have seen a number of lists of trade goods from fur trading posts but I don't recall seeing these mentioned. I have heard of fort blacksmiths making arrowheads from hoop iron taken from barrels.
    I'd first heard of the ink scrapper blade arrowheads many years ago, and about two years ago I ran across some of these displayed on a website dealing in indian artifacts.

    When a popular item paper was extremely hard to get in the US and very expensive, you'll often see signs of reused paper in the photo copies of historical documents, especially memos sent by officers in the field.
    Once paper became cheap and easy to find even on the frontier the scrappers became more of a curiosity item than anything else, seldom used and rusting away on store shelves.
    Indians had scavenged these from debris left by wagon trains, and soon began to look for them when visiting trading posts.
    The blades look like a short wide scalpel blade, the cheaper ones are flat all steel while more expensive brands have nice handles. The steel is usually high quality, it holds a good edge and isn't brittle.

    Scrap iron was used for many items, railroad spikes were often hand forged into skinning knives or lanceheads.
    The "Secesh Bowie" was a common Confederate soldiers fighting knife usually handmade from the strap steel or iron used to brace wagon bodies or tailgates.
    Indian blacksmith work ranged from the extremely primitive to masters of the craft.

    PS
    heres a common example of the scraper knife, also used by Draftsmen and called an erasor knife.
    http://antiques.itaggit.com/Collecti...k-Scraper-%231
    This example has a handle and double edged blade, most I've seen have a single edge.
    Last edited by Multigunner; 12-16-2009 at 11:40 PM.

  4. #84
    Boolit Buddy buckweet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    If you have never been to the Little Bighorn you need to go. You can still feel the fear, and anger, and smell the death in that place.









    i've been there, your right. i could hear the indians screaming, and the rifles roar, and smell of gunpowder.... the place freaked me out.

    but ? im glad i went. we was on the harley, beautifull country up there.

  5. #85
    Boolit Buddy Captain*Kirk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semtav View Post
    thanks OK
    Now to just tie that to Gibbon !!!!


    Nice Champ. I went to Spartan in about 80. Have a lot of friends in that area that fly. My old champ is still down there too. (1136E)
    Get out!!!!!I was at Spartan in '78-'79 and graduated in November of that year!

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by oksmle View Post
    "My old champ is still down there too. (1136E) "

    Yep. It's up in Miami, OK, & as far as I know is still flyin' holes in the sky ....
    I know where that is at. I lost a mag on the way to NM in July 03 and that was the closest airport to line of flight. We landed and some gray haired mechanic figured out what the problem was and we spent about 3 hours fixing it. He had to fuel a couple airplanes during that time which didn't take long. When I went to pay up he said that will be $60. I said you have to be kidding me and I gave him $80 and told him to have dinner on me. It was close to 130 out on the tarmac that afternoon.

    Bob
    GUNFIRE! The sound of Freedom!

  7. #87
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    iron heads

    Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner View Post
    Well this is an excellent thread with much useful information.

    I can add that some breechloaders and repeaters were issued with a chamber, and I suppose throat, cleaning tool to be used in thefield when fouling began to build up enough to hamper loading. The tool was shaped like a chambering reamer only made from bronze rather than steel.
    water was poured through the bore from the open breech and the tool inserted and given a few turns to scrape away fouling.

    The British at Isandwana discovered to their misfortune that the Martini Henry rifles could begin to jam after two dozen or so volleys. They'd began firing at extreme range so by the time the Zulu closed to close quarters most of the muskets were already out of action or so badly fouled that reloading was difficult.
    This left them facing born and bred spearmen with bayonets, the British were outclassed in such close quarter combat.

    A test using Martini Henry rifles and period style ammo in a testing chamber in which the known humidity and temperature of that day was reproduced confirmed that report.

    As for the arrow heads, the site of the last stand of the Spartans had been subject of debate due to lack of there being any large number of arrowheads at the site, but a few years ago excavation of a nearby well uncovered thousands of arrowheads.
    Its very likely that the bodies of the Spartan warriors were chopped up and thrown down the well, a not uncommon practice in those days and one which Native American war parties are known to have followed in colonial times.
    Scavenging battlefields for any bit of metal was a common practice in ancient times, and is still practiced in the Middle East.
    An entire nation of nomadic scrap metal scavengers was known to roam the battlefields of the Middle East, which is why so few metal artifacts can be found to confirm ancient records of great battles.
    Indians couldn't just stop at a outdoor supply store to pick up a fresh pack of broadheads, they scavenged every arrow and arrowhead they could, it would be more suprising if there had been many arrowheads found there even a day later much less a century or more.

    A common Plains Indian steel arrowhead was actually a small scrapper blade once used to scrape away ink from a page so the paper could be reused. The blades were common and cheap and merchants found they could sell them by the bushel to the Indians.

    Mutilated bodies were sometimes the result of a warior cutting out an arrowhead or even to recover bullets to be melted and recast, or just hammered back in good enough shape to fit down the bore of a muzzleloader.
    Other supposed mutilations would be easy for a Homicide investiigator to recognise as defensive wounds. indians seldom wasted much time cutting up someone once they were dead, but people take a lot of killing when knives and hatchets are the only tool at hand.
    There were of course some specific ritual mutilations like scalping or cutting off a hand. The Zulu split a body open to release the spirit, they believed the swelling up of a decomposing body was the spirit trying to get out, splitting the body was actually a sign of respect for the fallen enemy, they didn't bother to do so if they held the fallen in contempt.

    As for Colt grip screws. Complete disassembly for a through cleaning was common, so screws were made of fairly soft steel. Its a lot easier to replace worn screws than to rethread worn screw holes.
    The threads of my replica colt wore quickly and often backed out under recoil. I replaced these with some identical screws I found at at an old Singer Sewing machine repair shop. So far the replacement screws have given no problems and don't shoot loose.
    A side note is that some quick draw artists found that they could draw a colt so fast that they sheared off the grip frame screws, leaving them holding a grip but no gun. Pistols modified for exhibition fast draw sometimes use special hardened oversized grip frame screws.
    Good post there Multigunner! all interesting stuff

    One day while scrounging, poking around near where I lived, I found a small stash of iron arrowheads. The area also had the usual signs of Am Indian habitation/camp/activity.... flint chips, flint heads, manos, metates, structures, etc.
    At least two different groups were known to have used the area over the last 1000 years or so. The iron heads were a little rusted/encrusted but otherwise in pretty good shape- each one was hand fashioned with slightly varying dimensions. The metal could have been from anything but for sure it was originally flat sheet metal and likely of mid 1800s American settler/trader/military origin and not Spanish origin from the 1500-1600s.

    May not have much to do with what bullet lube was used at LBH but may indicate that the American Indian of the time could and did innovate, adapt, salvage and scavenge. The pic is of the iron points and a 1 1/4"generic "flint" point for comparison.
    Last edited by 405; 07-21-2010 at 08:17 PM.

  8. #88
    Boolit Buddy Captain*Kirk's Avatar
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    I might mention....what a FANTASTIC thread! The Little Bighorn has always fascinated me, having read Sandoz's books as a teen as the first of many chronicles. I saw the History Channel thing and found it lacking. A lot of holes left unfilled, a lot of questions unanswered.
    Custer was undergunned, undermanned (purposefully, I might add; in his quest for fame and possible presidential nomination had victory been acquired, according to more than one author) and faced the wrath of more irate Sioux than even his scouts had imagined. Many (most, according to several authors) of the Sioux were armed with repeating rifles, compared to the single-shot trapdoor Springfields with their inherent brass problems.....there are numerous reports of soldiers being cut down as they feverishly tried to pry the stuck cartridges from the breech. The man was neither a hero nor a conquistador; he was an egomaniac on a power trip. Whether or not he worshipped Terry is irrelevant; he ditched the main force and divided his own in a personal quest for fame.....and got it, ironically. Not the way he would have wanted it, mind you.
    But, I'm not adding more than was already stated. As I said, great thread!

  9. #89
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    Another good book on LBH...Killing Custer by James Welch. Written more from the Indian POV, and goes into a lot of the aftermath for the Sioux up to the Wounded Knee event.

  10. #90
    Boolit Buddy Captain*Kirk's Avatar
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    A little off-topic, but....those of you who have been there; what can you tell me as someone who is contemplating a trip to the battlefield? Where to go, what to see, nearest campgrounds, etc?

  11. #91
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    LBH & vicinity

    Not much help on campgrounds nearby... more local members can fill that in. Lots of open country there. Billings largest nearby place. Since in the area you really oughta try a circle route. Billings down thru Dayton Wyo. From Dayton across the mountains to either Greybull or Lovell Wyo then on to Cody. Plan for at least a day in Cody to go thru the museum there. Then back up to Billings. Could do the circle in reverse order of course. Heckuva trip since you'll be in the area.

  12. #92
    Boolit Master Mumblypeg's Avatar
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    I was there in 1993 and we stayed at a campground on the west side of the highway across from the battelfield. Don't know if it's still there or not. We were on our way to Billings. I had waited half of my life to go there. When you see the terrain you will understand how the indians could sneak up and over run the calvary with ease, lots of coolies, ravines. I didn't find anything spooky about it though. I'm a fifer and I could not help but play "Garyowen" on my fife while I was there. I guess that was weird...
    Experience is the source of all knowledge.

  13. #93
    Boolit Buddy Captain*Kirk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mumblypeg View Post
    I was there in 1993 and we stayed at a campground on the west side of the highway across from the battelfield. Don't know if it's still there or not. We were on our way to Billings. I had waited half of my life to go there. When you see the terrain you will understand how the indians could sneak up and over run the calvary with ease, lots of coolies, ravines. I didn't find anything spooky about it though. I'm a fifer and I could not help but play "Garyowen" on my fife while I was there. I guess that was weird...
    Not weird a-tall. Took some big stones to honor the dead on their resting place....(albeit all the bodies were moved, from my recollection). I've seen photos and terrain maps, but I'm sure there's nothing like the Real Thing. Sandoz paints such a real picture in her book you start to wonder if you were actually there.....
    Are there any historical markers there, or are you on your own to identify where they fell?

  14. #94
    Boolit Buddy Captain*Kirk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 405 View Post
    Not much help on campgrounds nearby... more local members can fill that in. Lots of open country there. Billings largest nearby place. Since in the area you really oughta try a circle route. Billings down thru Dayton Wyo. From Dayton across the mountains to either Greybull or Lovell Wyo then on to Cody. Plan for at least a day in Cody to go thru the museum there. Then back up to Billings. Could do the circle in reverse order of course. Heckuva trip since you'll be in the area.
    Is that the Buffalo Bill museum? I was there, many, many moons ago as a teen, but Mom & Dad weren't keen about visiting the battlefield as we were on our way west to Glacier National, just passing through. Could hardly get them to stop at the museum!

  15. #95
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    There's white markers where all the troopers they could find and identify, and brown for the Souix and Cheyenne.
    There are self guided walking trails and several informational signs on the drive from last stand hill to Weir point.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  16. #96
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    Cody

    Yes it is! Since you're on this forum, interested in guns and shooting, the Plains Indians and the Custer Battlefield the Buffalo Bill museum in Cody should be a natural. Really need to plan on a whole day there. The same would hold true for the battlefield. Rushing thru won't do them justice. The LBH battlefield gives me a really odd feeling. It's unlike those big battlefields of the Civil War. The LBH area is open, rolling country, usually breezy or windy and very quiet to my ear. Strange huh. I guess it affects people differently.
    Last edited by 405; 01-11-2010 at 01:03 AM.

  17. #97
    Boolit Master Mumblypeg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain*Kirk View Post
    Not weird a-tall. Took some big stones to honor the dead on their resting place....(albeit all the bodies were moved, from my recollection). I've seen photos and terrain maps, but I'm sure there's nothing like the Real Thing. Sandoz paints such a real picture in her book you start to wonder if you were actually there.....
    Are there any historical markers there, or are you on your own to identify where they fell?
    There are stone markers where soldiers fell. Like other National Battlefields there is infomation on site.
    Experience is the source of all knowledge.

  18. #98
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance Four Fingers of Death's Avatar
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    Custer was roundly critised and rightly so, but his dashing style which won many battles could only last so long. I was in the Aussie Army Cavalry in Centurion Main Battle Tanks. We were one of the old Lighthorse Regiments. As a young Lieutenant, when asked how we would engage an enemy and we couldn't think of an appropriate answer we used to joke, do a Custer, bags of smoke and up the guts! Basically, lots of smoke and charge atraight at the enemy.

    I have been led to believe through my mil history studies that Custer had gatling guns available, but refused to take them because they would have slowed him down. His style works most of the time, but when it fails, the results are catasthropic. After studying his antics I applied the rule, I'd rather have the gear and not need it, than need the gear and not have it. I applied this all through my seciond career as a Correctional Officer and manager. The armoury in Sydney was a bit under a two hour drive. I would alwsys deploy all of my tear gas and call for more before we engaged. I figured by the time the dust settled, we'd be re-supplied.

    The Reader's Digest did a good article on Little Big Horn or Greasy Grass as the Injuns called it. They reported lots of knives with the tips broken off, obviously as a result of trying to extract cases from the rifles.
    Last edited by Four Fingers of Death; 01-11-2010 at 04:33 AM. Reason: Too much wine with dinner!
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  19. #99
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    The National Park Service maintains a visitor center on the site. Interpretive talks are given on a regular schedule on the patio, and there are guided walks and tours. Access to the Reno defensive sight is via a paved road five miles to the east. If you are a senior citizen, stop at any Park Service facility, (Rushmore, Devils Tour, Yellowstone, etc.) and buy a $10 Golden Eagle passport. This will get you into any National Park free, for life, and half price at federal campgrounds (U.S. Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, Nation Parks). There is a private campground on the west side of I90 at the battlefield exit and a KOA at Harden. Be sure to take the cemetery tour.

  20. #100
    Boolit Buddy Captain*Kirk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hydraulic View Post
    The National Park Service maintains a visitor center on the site. Interpretive talks are given on a regular schedule on the patio, and there are guided walks and tours. Access to the Reno defensive sight is via a paved road five miles to the east. If you are a senior citizen, stop at any Park Service facility, (Rushmore, Devils Tour, Yellowstone, etc.) and buy a $10 Golden Eagle passport. This will get you into any National Park free, for life, and half price at federal campgrounds (U.S. Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, Nation Parks). There is a private campground on the west side of I90 at the battlefield exit and a KOA at Harden. Be sure to take the cemetery tour.
    Great, thanks!

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