What would General Custer do?

[semtav]

SemTav: The .45-55 was the U.S. Army's carbine loading of the .45-70. In those days they were actually called .45 Government. The original loading used a 405 grain swaged bullet of 1-11 tin to lead over 70 grains of blackpowder. In the seven pound carbines troopers complained of excessive recoil. So the load was reduced to 55 grains with the same bullet. Space in the case was taken up with a cardboard tube. Some of the cases recovered by archaeologists at the battlefield digs still had the cardboard tubes in place. Both loadings used the same 2.10 inch case.

Sgt. John Ryan of M Troop, 7th Cavalry carried a heavy barreled Sharps rifle with telescope to the battle. He said he traded an infantry Sgt. out of some of the 70 grain loads for his rifle so he could have a little more range. M Troop was with Reno/Benteen and so Ryan and his rifle survived the fight.

The famous 500 grain bullet infantry load didn't come about until 1881.

MLV

Mike


Sorry I deleted my post while you were replying. I did a quick google and realized what he was referring to.

to go back to what Mike is referring to, I posted I'd never heard of them carrying a 45-55. all the references I'd seen were for the 45-70. After I posted, I google the info, then deleted my post.

In reference to hydraulic referring to them as a 45-55, is that proper terminology.

[Mike Venturino]

SemTav: Whereabouts are you in Montana? I'm near Livingston.

MLV

[semtav]

I live in that town where they hold the Quigley.
My daughter shoots in it, but I'm always gone working that time of year.
The current head of it is my daughters mentor and the reason I got bit pretty bad by the bug this year, so I do take in the small informal shoots.

[hydraulic]

Waksupi:

Though all Nebraskans, myself included, love our most famous author, Mari's books on the Custer fight and Crazy Horse, all of which I own, are rated at the low end for credibility by most battlefield historians. I am still curious to know who the people were who talked to Crazy Horse. Valentine McGillicuddy, agent at Pine Ridge, tended Crazy Horse after William Gentles bayoneted him, and he says he knew Crazy Horse but doesn't mention having talked to him. Lt. Philo Clark was in charge of the Indian camps at Fort Robinson, but, to the best of my knowledge, he doesn't record any conversations with Crazy Horse.

[waksupi]

Waksupi:

Though all Nebraskans, myself included, love our most famous author, Mari's books on the Custer fight and Crazy Horse, all of which I own, are rated at the low end for credibility by most battlefield historians. I am still curious to know who the people were who talked to Crazy Horse. Valentine McGillicuddy, agent at Pine Ridge, tended Crazy Horse after William Gentles bayoneted him, and he says he knew Crazy Horse but doesn't mention having talked to him. Lt. Philo Clark was in charge of the Indian camps at Fort Robinson, but, to the best of my knowledge, he doesn't record any conversations with Crazy Horse.

There is an extensive bibliography in the back of the book, giving primary resources. Needless to say, I'm not goiung to take time to look into all of them!

[vulture47]

I've never loaded for a trapdoor, never owned one so I don't know how it would function with my .45-70 load. I used to own an Italian made sharps rifle. If I can remember right my load was somewhere around 65 grains of cartridge black powder followed by a lube cookie made from bees wax and any natural fat I had on hand. Below the black powder I would stick a few grains of Unique, can't remember the exact amount but it wasn't much. I think it's refered to a duplex load. They shot extremely well, and I could shoot all day with very little fouling, none back around the action. Hey, just my two cents worth, wish I still had the rifle. Now I shoot 1858 Remington revolvers converted to .45 Colt. So far I haven't tried a black powder load, just a smokeless load of the same pressures of black powder.

[robertbank]

I do hope we are not using Hollywood as a source document for opinions as to who did what to who...how and why. One of the facinations of history is that it is usually written by the victors with their own slant on events both sucessful and failure.

Take Care

Bob

[semtav]

Do any of you history buffs know what pistols were used by the troops at that time? Specifically Gibbon's troops while patrolling the north side of the Yellowstone?

[Mike Venturino]

Gibbons troops were infantry. They weren't issued handguns. Standard issue handgun for cavalry was the Colt SAA .45 with 7 1/2" barrel.

[semtav]

Ok.
I'm trying to put the timeline together and see if the Rolling Block pistol in 50 Remington or any other pistol in that caliber was carried by anyone in Gibbons outfit. I thought they were out for a brief period about then.

[Larry Gibson]

Gibbons troops were infantry. They weren't issued handguns. Standard issue handgun for cavalry was the Colt SAA .45 with 7 1/2" barrel.

Mike

The Montana Column was made up of infantry and cavalry of which the coloumn was commanded by Colonal Gibbon. Major James S. Brisban commanded 4 companies (F, G, H and I) of the Second Cavalry in the Montana Column under Colonal Gibbons. The calvalrymen were armed with M1873 carbines and M1873 Colts as you mention.

Larry Gibson

[semtav]

Reason I asked, is because I recently found out I grew up where Gibbon camped in the general area across from the mouth of Rosebud Creek. When I was young, I found what appears to be a big pistol cartridge in the side of one of our irrigation ditches. I just put it in my collection of old shells ( 45-70, 45-75,45-110 etc) I'd found in the hills around our place.

I'd looked it up years ago in my Cartridges of the World book and always thought it was a 50 Remington Navy.
Now I'm digging on the internet and all the dimensions are right except the length.
I get:

Rim .640
Base .560
Neck ..540

which is right, but the length is:

Case 1.05
OAL 1.625

Which doesn't compute with the dimensions I find for the 50 rem @ .858 and 1.288

[oksmle]

semtav .... Let's complicate the issue a bit more.... I'm measuring the last original, unfired cartridge belonging to my Remington Navy .50 cal Rolling block & it measures:
Rim: .643
Base: .565
Neck: .533
Case: .890
OAL: 1.275

I believe that what you have is actually what you think it is. I have seen several original rounds that were for the .50 Army/Navy that were all different dimensions. Close, but different. Both of my Army pistols have a longer chamber than my Navy pistol does. I cut 50/70 brass down to fit the Navy & shoot it in all three.

[waksupi]

An overlooked fact, the winning side did most of the work with dogwood arrows, and osage and ash bows.

[semtav]

thanks OK
Now to just tie that to Gibbon !!!!


Nice Champ. I went to Spartan in about 80. Have a lot of friends in that area that fly. My old champ is still down there too. (1136E)

[oksmle]

"My old champ is still down there too. (1136E) "

Yep. It's up in Miami, OK, & as far as I know is still flyin' holes in the sky ....

[Mike Venturino]

Larry: Thanks for the reminder. I was only focusing on Gibbon's infantry.

Semtav: I don't know about Gibbon's attached cavalry but some troops of the 7th turned in the .50 Remington handguns when they were issued Colt SAAs in 1874. Officers could also buy their handguns from the U.S. Army if they wished. As I remember the archaeologists identified at least four S&W American Model #3s as having been at the Little Bighorn but of course we don't know which side they were used on. The army bought 1000 of those in 1871.

Anyway, your cartridge collection sounds interesting.
MLV

[semtav]

I remember the exact spot I found the 50 Rem shell 40 yrs ago, and I'm thinking, the next time that field gets plowed up, I'm gonna go out there with a metal detector.

I think one of my old classmates recently located the spot where the three men from Gibbon's company were killed by Indians while hunting game here..

Finding the spot they were buried no doubt will be a lot harder.

[Dobetown]

The History channel thing that showed a 73 carbine and a winchester lever being compared only commented about rate of fire. It didn't mention effective range or accuracy.
A lot of troopers wore wool shirts.
The carbines may have been carried in boots or slings which can rub the finish off shigts rather quickley. the sights are pretty fine any way.
The midrange with 45/55 and the battle sight is almost 2 feet. Any one who has shot on a range on a hot summer day knows how you eyes mist and sights blur.
to shoot a running or jumping Indians would been quite a trick.
The comment about not finding metal arrow heads was interesting, Some could have been rusted away after a few years, and the Indian did have time to salcage the battle field. I was thinking they found some with the remains. Then I figured out when they moved the remains of the Fetterman fight to the Big Horn cemetary they found arow heads. Of course people have been picking up artifacts ever since the battle.

[hydraulic]

One of the interesting finds during the '84 dig was the recovery of a backstrap from an 1873 Colt revolver. This created a sensation because this is one of the parts of a Colt that has the serial number stamped on it. It was believed that research might reveal the soldier who lost it. It turned out that it was from a revolver belonging to a soldier from the 2nd Cavalry who was with Gibbon. He had been killed by Indians while out hunting while Gibbon was up on the Yellowstone before Custer arrived. What might have happened was that the Indian who took his revolver carried it to the Little Bighorn and it came apart during the battle. Dick Harmon (firearms expert at the dig) told me that Colt issued screwdrivers with their Colt '73's because the screws shoot loose. I find this to be true with my single action from 1896. MLV might authenticate this statement. Anyway, here it this Indian warrior banging away with his captured Colt, unaware that the screws had loosened, and the backstrap fell off, most likely at a most inappropriate time.