What would General Custer do?

[jgraham1]

mooman76 -

I recall the show you mentioned. I believe that you are correct with the name of the show too. It was very interesting, but what they could not determine, by followning spent cartridges that had the same balistic marks, was whether the Trooper was still using the rifle or if an indian picked it up and used it. All in all, it was very interesting to say the least.

Jerry

[hydraulic]

HELL, I WAS THERE! Well, almost. The fire went through the battlefield in 1983 and the archaological investigation took place in 1984 & 85. Doug Scott, regional archaeologist for the National Park Service in Lincoln was in charge. I was hired in '86 and worked there through '89 as a summer seasonal. Dr. Scott's book, Archaeological Insights into The Custer Battle -An Assesment of the 1984 Field Season, destroyed a great many myths, particularly the one about the soldiers shells sticking in their carbines. On page 81 he says, "Hedren (Paul Hedron, Fort Union, USPS) 1973 has made an exhaustive study of cartridge-extraction problems at the Little Bighorn fight. He examined the available monument and private collections and found that 3 cases out of 1,625 had had extraction problems. Including Hedren's data, the rate of extractor failure amounts to less than 0.35 percent of all known examples of 45/55 cases."
Actually, there were more instances of cartridge case failure among the Indians than among the soldiers.
Let me recommend a couple of good books. Centennial Campaign by John Gray and Custer's Luck by Stewart are the best. These, and Scott's book, can be purchased by writing : Custer Battlefield Historical and Museum Association, P.O. Box 902, Hardin, MT 59034-0902.

[madcaster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AyEQRtbWkk
Turn up the speakers!

[semtav]

Actually, there were more instances of cartridge case failure among the Indians than among the soldiers.

And many of those were probably from using 45-70 cartridges in their 50 cal guns when they started running out of their own ammunition.

[Marlin Hunter]

Put what doubs43 and Don McDowell said about the cartridge itself and add in the idiot that Custer was and it can only spell disaster for everyone involved.

Someday I will travel there and to Gettysburg just to look at them.

Ive been to Andersonville in Georgia. If you get a chance to watch the movie made by Turner Broadcasting, it is well worth seeing.

[twidget]

A new book on the Battle of the Little Bighorn is A Terrible Glory by James Donovan. I'm not any kind of an expert on the battle, but this one is a good read. I visited the battlefield in 2004 an 2009 and found it very interesting. My great-grandfather served under Custer in Texas after the Civil War so there is somewhat of a personal connection.

If you are 62 years old or more be sure to get one of these passes http://www.nps.gov/fees_passes.htm before you go. It's hard to get a good feel for the battle without visiting the site. There is a very nice visitor center and a self-guided tour. It's well worth the trip.

[NickSS]

I visited the Little Big Horn battle field several times and once during the archeological digs. In addition I have read three books on the findings of those digs and there were only a very small percentage of cartridge case failures among the evidence found. In addition, It was the ammo that the army was producing which led to the adaption of the 1873 trapdoor rifle as it was the only weapon that handled that ammo when the gun was very dirty from firing. I can attest to the accuracy of that by some tests I ran shooting straight black powder in Sharps, Rolling Blocks and trapdoors. I fired up to 100 rounds without cleaning in the trapdoor but could not phicially load the other two actions because of fouling build up in front of the chamber. The trapdoor was the only rifle to make 100 rounds and it would have goon longer. My lube recipee in bees wax and crisco 40-40 with 20% Olive oil.

[KCSO]

Accoding to Ned Roberts he loaded 44-40 with Curtis and Harvey powder and could shoot 125 rounds in a day with out cleaning and the last shot was as good as the first. hhe used bees wax and Bear oil for a lube. I still use this and with the 45-70 and Elephant Powder i could get 15-17 shots without expanding the group too much but after that the gun will foul out and by shot 25 the bullets are going sideways. If you use Swiss powder you can shoot about 10 more rounds before accuracy is gone. In 45 Colt in a Colt style revolver WITH the bushing 25 rounds or more are possible. In a Merwin and Hulbert 8 shots and the cylinder is tight and in an original Scofield we were able to shoot just 12 shots before the cylinder stuck. Of course this is dependent on weather, powder used and how fast you shoot. Military target practice in the 1880's called for no more than 15 shots total in a day and these were fired in 5 round strings with cleaning ever 5 shots.

[Major Tom]

www.friendslittlebighorn.com
This site contains more info about the LBH gathered just recently. From firearms used, where they were used, soldiers burials, battle damage to skeletons and more.

[zampilot]

'"An Assesment of the 1984 Field Season, destroyed a great many myths, particularly the one about the soldiers shells sticking in their carbines"

I'd wonder how many carbines were examined after the battle to state this ? I'd guess not many if any, since they were not 'around' any longer.

[hydraulic]

Zam: Obviously, the carbines were not examined. But if there were instances of cartridges being pried out of the chamber with hunting knives, pocket knives or other sharp objects, there would be evidence on some of the many thousands of empty cartridge cases found on the battlefield. There were a few, but only a small percentage of the total. There were many .45-55 cartridge cases found that had been split by being fired in a .50-70, most likely by Indians using Sharps coversions provided by the government by treaty for hunting. Another myth is the one about the Indians hiding behind the bushes and launching hundreds of arrows in a high arc to fall among the soldiers. There were a total of eight metal arrowheads found by the archeologists. Some have postulated that the arrows were all picked up by early visitors to the battlefield. However, there are no known examples of battlefield arrows in any museum or private collection. If there were hundreds or thousands of arrows on the battlefield, surely there would be at least one, somewhere. The battle was a gun fight in which the Indians, in great numbers, were able to get in close, on foot, and use their Henrys, Winchesters, Sharps, Spencers and over 40 other types of firearms (cartridge cases found in the Indian positons) to rain bullets down on the soldiers. A couple of other instances of no arrows: Of the 50 wounded from Reno Hill, none had arrow wounds, nor had the many killed in that fight. Also, on June 17, one week before the Custer fight, General Crook fought the same Indians at the Battle of the Rosebud a few mile to the east. No arrow wounds in that fight either. Reno survived because the Indians couldn't get close enough to use their short range weapons against the superior firepower of the soldiers. The damage done was mostly by using .45-55's captured from Custer. Most of the bullets found in the Reno position were .45-55's.

[waksupi]

The Sioux used the tactic, in battles before the Greasy Grass, to engage the soldiers, and try to get them to fire three or more shots in rapid fire. That would generally tie up the guns, and they could make an attack, killing the soldiers, and capturing the weapons. The used the same tactic with Custer. Crazy Horse stated they would capture the guns, drive the casings out from the muzzle end, and use them as long as they had ammo. If the Indians would have been better armed, and with sufficient ammo, the results would have been much different on the plains.

[hydraulic]

Wakksupi:

I was unaware that there had ever been an interview with Crazy Horse. Can you tell us where it is printed?

[454PB]

This will make you cringe....

I was born and raised in Billings, which is about 70 miles from the Custer Battlefield.

When I was a kid in the middle to late 50's, my uncle gave me a handfull of large lead slugs he recovered form the battlefield.

Even back then, I was facinated by melting down lead, and that was their fate.

[405]

My opinion only.... The absolute facts about what happened to any of the firearms/ammo in the fog of battle will never be known. What I do know is that..... on the ground.... on that battlefield and replaying the scene in the mind's eye will give a very unique perspective.... impossible to glean from even the best recount, movie or documentary. For anyone interested in such things- well advised to go there and study it in person. I for one if placed in Custer's boots or any of his troop's at the time, I think one look at the adversary just prior to the engagement.... I'd say to myself, "Oh !#*!, this is not going to turn out well!"

[waksupi]

Wakksupi:

I was unaware that there had ever been an interview with Crazy Horse. Can you tell us where it is printed?

Get "Crazy Horse", by Mari Sandoz. She used the research of Eleanor Hinman, Bad Bull Heart's papers, national and army archives to put together the story. Crazy Horse and many other of the Indians talked extensively to the soldiers after they were put on the reservations. Much of the information was forwarded in letters to DC.

[Mike Venturino]

SemTav: The .45-55 was the U.S. Army's carbine loading of the .45-70. In those days they were actually called .45 Government. The original loading used a 405 grain swaged bullet of 1-11 tin to lead over 70 grains of blackpowder. In the seven pound carbines troopers complained of excessive recoil. So the load was reduced to 55 grains with the same bullet. Space in the case was taken up with a cardboard tube. Some of the cases recovered by archaeologists at the battlefield digs still had the cardboard tubes in place. Both loadings used the same 2.10 inch case.

Sgt. John Ryan of M Troop, 7th Cavalry carried a heavy barreled Sharps rifle with telescope to the battle. He said he traded an infantry Sgt. out of some of the 70 grain loads for his rifle so he could have a little more range. M Troop was with Reno/Benteen and so Ryan and his rifle survived the fight.

The famous 500 grain bullet infantry load didn't come about until 1881.

MLV

[405]

I sometimes use "CRS" date markers as ways to remember bits of history. An easy way in this example would be: the LBH battle was a "big event" and happened at the centennial date of 1876. The Sandy Hook trials took place in 1879 leading to the adoption of the 500 gr 45-70 (govt) a couple of years later. Doesn't ensure photographic recall of history but saves a lot of time spent digging back thru material for the more common details.

[stephen perry]

I'm watching Custer with Erroll Flynn right now. All the US calvary in the West couldn't have saved Custer. He died for a purpose to give Terry time. Custer was one the many dead heroes of the West.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[montana_charlie]

He died for a purpose to give Terry time. Custer was one the many dead heroes of the West.

Custer was too egotistical for his own good, and too 'heroic' for the good of his troops.
His 'audacious leadership' brought him promotion during the Civil War, where both sides were on more or less equal footing...and using identical tactics. After placing his forces in untenable positions, an abundance of grim determination to stay alive enabled his men to hand him 'victories' that made him appear as a great tactician.

When faced with tactics that were not taught at West Point, performed by fighters that Custer deemed unintelligent and cowardly, he 'heroically' bit off more than his men could chew.

CM