What would General Custer do?

[Charlie in Co]

Viclav

Yes there is such a report. However, that was late in the Reno/Benteen fight after some pretty hard useage. Also the report is really vague as to how many times and how many M1873 carbines were involved. There is no mention of stuck cases being a major problem in any of the officers reports. We must also remmber those same soldiers (remainder of the 7th, Brisban's 2 cavalry and the cavalry with Crook) continued on the campaign with the same issued M1873 carbines and the very same ammunition. The point is there is little fact to support any amount of jamming or stuck cartridge cases that would have been a factor in the battle. Thanks for the comments, it is always enjoyable to discuss the various aspects with those interested.

Larry Gibson

I think this is pretty much of a dead end with respect to changing the outcome at the LBH. I just finished reading "A Terrible Glory" and believe that the book captures the essence of what happened that day. The makings of which were many months in the making before that June day. Seems to me that Reno's and Benteen's extreme dislike of Custer was the main cause of the disaster. The Court of Inquiry statements were never clear to me until I read this book. It really tied together the personalities involved.

[Don McDowell]

Go stand at Weir point and stare off down medal of honor draw from the remnants of the rifle pit sometime. Take a good look around. They should of propped Custer up courtmarshaled him and shot him again.

[Charlie in Co]

Been there, several times. I am going to take my daughters on the Indian campaign vacation this year. We are going to start at Sand Creek (not too far from where we live) and visit the major battle sites ending up at the LBH on the 24th of June and then going back.

[hydraulic]

Gary Custer came into the coffee shop this morning. He's a decendent of the General's brother. We all started talking Custer, again, and Richard Hermanek, who lives across the Missouri in Running Water, SD, mentioned that his place sits pretty close to the grain elevator that was owned by John Lawler. Lawler was married to Nina Sturgis, daughter of Colonel Sam Sturgis, commanding officer of the 7th Cavalry and Custer's boss. Reno got courtmartialed for peeping at her through the parlor window at Fort Meade and wound up getting thrown out of the Army. Anyway, Nina married John Lawler who had interests in the grain business in the Dakota's, but he died at a early age from a heart attack and Nina married John Pillsbury. In l996 John Pillsbury III walked into the visitor center at the Battlefield and asked my Mrs. if she could direct him to the marker for Jack Sturgis. Jack was the youngest son of Sam and he was killed in the battle. She asked him if he was any relation and he said Jack was the brother of his grandmother, Nina Sturgis. When I got back from a talk I was giving to a group of visitors, I met Mr. Pillsbury and he generously loaned me a family history of the Pillsbury and Sturgis families. John Pillsbury III was president of the Pillsbury Baking Co. Jack Strugis' body was never found and his mother, Jarusha, had nightmares that he had been captured. In later years she visited the battlefield so the soldiers at Fort Custer, to ease her mind, put up a headstone with Jack's name on it. That stone is still there, though we have no idea where Jack fell. I don't know if any of this is of interest, but it's pretty slow this time of year and I thought you might want something to read.

[Don McDowell]

Hydraulic do you suppose one of those troopers they found after the fire might of been Sturgis?

[hydraulic]

Don: The skeletal remains recovered in '84 were fragmentary and unidentifiable except for a jawbone that they figured was Mitch Boyer's. It belonged to a mixed blood pipe smoker in his mid 30's. In '86 a skull and shoulder blade were found in the Little Bighorn river at the site of Reno's crossing. They did one of those reconstructions and believe it is Private Moody of G company. I think Jack wound up with those guys from E company whose remains were never found down in Deep Ravine. His gloves were recovered in the village by Gibbons men.

I was there in '86 when they did the dig at Reno's dump site. On a day off one of the staff went down to the LBH to look around and found the skull in the river. We had a party at the staff quarters a couple of nights later and I got to see the skull. I think Dr. Snow from Oklahoma U. did the forensics, if I remember correctly.

I had a group of visitors on a walk down Deep Ravine that summer of '86, and when we were coming back up out of the ravine I stopped at Mitch Boyer's marker (it had been placed after the jawbone was found) to wait for everyone to catch up. I was standing there skylarking when I happened to look down and saw a small grayish-green stone emerging from the trail. I took out my pocket knife and stuck it under this "stone" and out poped an unfired .45-55. I put in my pocket and when I got up to the visitor center I called the Mrs. over by the water cooler and pulled out the cartridge to proudly show her my souvenir. In a voice loud enough to be heard all over the building she says, "You get right in there and give that to Neil, you know that's against the law!" Neil Mangum was the battlefield historian at that time, and he escorted me to the archives in the basement where we recorded the find and where my souvenir resides today. It doesn't pay to marry an honest woman.

How many days till Alliance? Looking forward to seeing you there. CM.

[Don McDowell]

Charlie didn't they find one trooper they'ld never seen before over to the north last stand hill , down by the highway?

As it starts on April 30 with the 22 and leverguns, I'm thinking its 100 or there abouts.

[hydraulic]

Don: Now that you mention it, I recall a skeleton being found east of Calhoun Hill up a ways from Medicine Tail Coolee, but that wasn't found at the time of the '84 dig. Calhoun Hill is on the east end of Custer Ridge. I'll go back downstairs and dig around in the file cabinet and see if I can find anything. I used to keep all my back copies of the Greasy Grass but gave them to the grandson some years back, and I'll bet there is a writeup in there someplace. Also, Sandhills Cowboy is in touch with Roy Lindsay, Super at Fort Hartsuff ret.), and I think Roy was involved in that episode, so if the Cowboy reads this we may get him to ask Roy. However, that wasn't Jack Sturgis anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter. Did you know that James Calhoun was the General's brother in law? Margaret Custer Calhoun lost her husband, three brothers, and a nephew at the LBH.

[Don McDowell]

Onetime in a discussion about Custer and other old dead guys, an overly energetic young feller retorted that he'ld take Custer on his side in a fight anyday and win. I replied back that I hoped that he had better luck than his brothers, favored nephew, and brother inlaw.

[jh45gun]

I always had an interest in the 7th Cav and Custer, since my Dad was in the 7th Cav when they were stationed in Fort Bliss Texas during WWI and patroled the Texas/ Mexican Border. Dad was a bugler with the Rank of Corporal. (ever notice Buglers always had the rank of Corporal ???) I never heard any stories of my dad of riding a horse after the war I know he never did after I was growing up, but yes Dad was a horse soldier while he was in the service in the 7th.

[hydraulic]

While I was digging around in my files I came across an article I wrote for True West magazine in it's December, 1989 issue. Boys, don't get old-you get forgetful and your memory screws things up. Her name wasn't Nina Sturgis, it was Ella Sturgis, and she didn't marry John Pillsbury, her daughter, Elenor did. After John Lawler died Ella married John Pennington, president of the Minnesota, St. Paul, and Sault St. Marie Railraod. Now here's an interesting tidbit. In l968 Reno's case was reviewed by the Board for Correction of Military Records, and they found he had been too severly punished and was reinstated to the Army, dug up and returned to Custer Battlefield where he is now reburied. The president of the Board was Stanley Resor; GRANDSON OF ELLA STURGIS, THE GAL WHO GOT HIM KICKED OUT OF THE SERVICE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[Don McDowell]

Neat stuff Charlie thanks for letting us in on it.

[Boz330]

Charlie, I don't disagree with your comment about getting old and forgetful, BUT I don't think I am ready to give up getting old quite yet. Even with the forgetfulness.
Nice insight into some of the things surrounding the battle. Thanks!

Bob

[dangerranger]

I have enjoyed all six pages of the read so far. but back to his original question their are several things that can be done to keep a bp gun in a fight. I have two colt clones from the early eightys that were notorious for binding up with fouling. a gun smith friend fixed them by recutting the forcing cones to a better angle for BP and opening up the barrel gap. he also gave me some big groove boolits. now instead of having to clean after every 20 to 30 shots I can easily shoot 50 or more. he also tought me about lube cookies. a little disk of lube under the boolit. the cookies were messy but kept the fouling soft. with the additional lube I could just keep shooting. this worked better in my lever gun. Im not shure if the lube cookies would foul the powder charge on a hot day or not so I quit using them , but they did their job. I think that there are things about BP that were forgotten and are now having to be relearned. great thread! DR

[Multigunner]

I have enjoyed all six pages of the read so far. but back to his original question their are several things that can be done to keep a bp gun in a fight. I have two colt clones from the early eightys that were notorious for binding up with fouling. a gun smith friend fixed them by recutting the forcing cones to a better angle for BP and opening up the barrel gap. he also gave me some big groove boolits. now instead of having to clean after every 20 to 30 shots I can easily shoot 50 or more. he also tought me about lube cookies. a little disk of lube under the boolit. the cookies were messy but kept the fouling soft. with the additional lube I could just keep shooting. this worked better in my lever gun. Im not shure if the lube cookies would foul the powder charge on a hot day or not so I quit using them , but they did their job. I think that there are things about BP that were forgotten and are now having to be relearned. great thread! DR

You might want to look up information on the use of discs of beeswax compound used bewtween the over the charge card and bullet of .450 and larger ammunition for Maxim guns.
They used a fairly thick disc of solid wax. The formula for the Beeswax compound is in a treatise on ammunition I have in PDF, I can dig it up if you like.
Besides the Beeswax itself they added Swedish Pitch, from pine or fir trees, Russian Tallow, and resin.
I wondered about the Russian tallow being described as the best for such purposes and went digging deeper. I found that in Russian they fed the cattle dried beets during long cold spells, this had an effect on the chemical makeup of the fat cells which in turn had an effect on the qualities of tallow made from the fat. Now days beets have become fairly common as a winter cattle feed, so could be the same type of tallow is available from other sources.
The Beewax compound had a fair resistence to tropical summer heat, so it may be what you need.

Also it would seem to me that a Colt style front loader revolver reloaded by use of spare loaded cylinders would have a number of advantages over the single action cartridge revolvers of that period.
When swapping out cylinders wiping the arbor pin would be natural, ridding the gun of the worst of the fouling. If worse came to worse the locking latch could be left sligthl;y loose to give more of a gap.
Reloading using spare preloaded cylinders can be cumbersome on the move but still easier and much faster than extracting six empties and reloading one at a time through the gate. Of course few would have more than one or two spare cylinders to use.
Using paper cartridges and a capper reloading a C&B revolver is near as fast as a cartridge revolver, since no empty cases are left to be extracted after firing.

[Don McDowell]

The original Colt's model P had a shallow scallop in the topstrap just over the top of the cylinder and end of the barrel to help keep the fouling from binding the cylinder.

[dangerranger]

You might want to look up information on the use of discs of beeswax compound used bewtween the over the charge card and bullet of .450 and larger ammunition for Maxim guns.
They used a fairly thick disc of solid wax. The formula for the Beeswax compound is in a treatise on ammunition I have in PDF, I can dig it up if you like.
Besides the Beeswax itself they added Swedish Pitch, from pine or fir trees, Russian Tallow, and resin.
I wondered about the Russian tallow being described as the best for such purposes and went digging deeper. I found that in Russian they fed the cattle dried beets during long cold spells, this had an effect on the chemical makeup of the fat cells which in turn had an effect on the qualities of tallow made from the fat. Now days beets have become fairly common as a winter cattle feed, so could be the same type of tallow is available from other sources.
The Beewax compound had a fair resistence to tropical summer heat, so it may be what you need.

Also it would seem to me that a Colt style front loader revolver reloaded by use of spare loaded cylinders would have a number of advantages over the single action cartridge revolvers of that period.
When swapping out cylinders wiping the arbor pin would be natural, ridding the gun of the worst of the fouling. If worse came to worse the locking latch could be left sligthl;y loose to give more of a gap.
Reloading using spare preloaded cylinders can be cumbersome on the move but still easier and much faster than extracting six empties and reloading one at a time through the gate. Of course few would have more than one or two spare cylinders to use.
Using paper cartridges and a capper reloading a C&B revolver is near as fast as a cartridge revolver, since no empty cases are left to be extracted after firing.

Multigunner, I haddnt thought of alloying the wax for it to hold up to the heat. I live in an area where 100deg heat is the rule in the summer. and 115 is not uncommon. temps in a closed car can easily go over 160deg. I could just see the bees wax melting down into the powder. for that reason I carry my ammo in an insulated lunch box. DR