-Your accuracy with PP !

[Marlin Junky]

Yeah, I'm with Zeek... at least let us know whether those tails were twisted or folded!

MJ

[303Guy]

That pic was posted by windrider. I shall PM him to ask.

[303Guy]

Good heavens! This thread has had 2000 visits already! Clearly it is of great interest to many folks.

[lwknight]

This has been a delightful read.
I cannot even pretend to know anything about PP'ing or BP rifles for that matter.
I'm wondering, if in the long rangeshoots, the trajectory is affected when the boolit goes transonic ( drops out of warp) at distance. 22 shooters found that sub sonic ammo was better at 50+ yards due to the transonic effect on the cheap bullet bases.

Question/idea: If the boolit bases are all important and 50 yards does not prove out a load, could it be that the distance actually proved the boolits ability to remain stable during the subsonic transition.

I plan to load PP for my 38-55 soon and its a fairly slow load anyway. Thats why I have such an interest in this and can come up with some off the wall questions.

In theory, at supersonic speed, the compression wave leaves a void of dead space behind and around the trailing part of the boolit. So I would think that the base or anomolies of the paper would be less significant than subsonic boolits.

I already know that I'm rambling in what I don't know what I'm talking about but, I'm trying to get an idea together.

[303Guy]

lwknight

I like your thinking and enquiring! I've come to suspect that the 38-55 is a premium PP candidate.

Due to my inability to get out to the range and do some serious testing, I have spend a lot of time just reading and chatting and playing around with the actual application of the patch and I like to think I have made some progress. (I have also spent a little time making molds and patch application tools).

I have derived a lot of pleasure in the success and trials of those who can get to the range. So, .... I wish you all the best (and soonest )!

P.S. I feel that I have only just scratched the surface. But what fun that has been so far!

[303Guy]

How about this snippet.

At that point, their loads were at match accuracy. I note that Ed Harris, on the CBA website, stated these PPCB were equal to government match ammo and he then used them in regularly scheduled 1000yd competition.

[405]

This has been a delightful read.
I cannot even pretend to know anything about PP'ing or BP rifles for that matter.
I'm wondering, if in the long rangeshoots, the trajectory is affected when the boolit goes transonic ( drops out of warp) at distance. 22 shooters found that sub sonic ammo was better at 50+ yards due to the transonic effect on the cheap bullet bases.

Question/idea: If the boolit bases are all important and 50 yards does not prove out a load, could it be that the distance actually proved the boolits ability to remain stable during the subsonic transition.

I plan to load PP for my 38-55 soon and its a fairly slow load anyway. Thats why I have such an interest in this and can come up with some off the wall questions.

In theory, at supersonic speed, the compression wave leaves a void of dead space behind and around the trailing part of the boolit. So I would think that the base or anomolies of the paper would be less significant than subsonic boolits.

I already know that I'm rambling in what I don't know what I'm talking about but, I'm trying to get an idea together.

I've watched bullets in flight go squirrely just about the time (range), according to ballistics computers, that they drop thru the sonic/subsonic transition. Full explanation of that or even if it is a true cause-effect relationship is beyond me.

To proclaim however that for long range shooting the only group size that means anything is some arbitrary range (usually decided by the proclaimer) is folly. To say that 50 or 100 yard groups mean nothing for shooting at 300 yards seems folly. If the gun/load shoots 5" or 7" groups at 50 or 100 yards then there is no way it will shoot anyway but poorly at 300. If the gun/load shoots 15" groups at 300 there is no way it will shoot anyway but poorly at 500..... and so on. The only absolute valid test in the end, is at the range that is shot. If the Holy Grail for so and so shooter is 1000 yards (seems to be an elitist threshold for long range braggin' rights) then the VALID group is at 1000 yards- not some arbitrary range, be it 100 or 200 or 300 yards.

[1874Sharps]

There is something to the phenomenon of the subsonic transition. At subsonic speeds air acts as an incompressible fluid and at supersonic speeds it acts as a compressible fluid. The transition between the two can be somewhat violent (just ask a Naval Aviator who has flown supersonic jets). For those who shoot bullets or boolits that remain supersonic their entire flight it is not an issue. However it is a factor if the boolit goes through this transonic state. That is why a load can shoot well out to several hundred yards (say for example, a 45-70) but then have substantial accuracy degradation after the transition. I cannot even attempt to explain all of the aerodynamic and other forces at work, but it is true. I am not disagreeing with statements in other posts, but rather giving a different angle.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

405.

Brings up A good point, Recently testing loads with .446 patched to .451 and .444 patched to .4955 bullets in the same rifle, my 25 Lb Sharps, found at 200 yards a slight advantage in group size with the .446 bullet. Both loads shot sub MOA groups at that yardage.

Took said load to my 1000 yard range ( I know I am an elitist) and the load shot about a 5 foot vertical grouping. Death for a Long Range comp load. I often test out loads at 200 yards as a bare minium for load work up. The best at that range get further testing at 600 to 800 yards. Or just 1000 if they show good potential. My reasons for 200 yards this also gives one good clues as to how well the load will hold up in wind and conditions. This is not cojecture on my part but years of shooting long range and testing said loads from 100 to 1000 yards. So things do not SEEM to me I know them from years of practice and testing. A good yard stick is 200 yards in conditions, however its not the acid test for final loads used. 800 is my favorite test range as one can get a good feel for accuracy for Long range Creedmoor style shooting. Golly that might explain the majority of my Medals are at 800 yards.

However I have seen 45-70 loads that shot excellent scores at 800 yards not even hit the 1000 yard target. Again years of match shooting and actual experience are what I draw upon to make that Statement it does not seem to me that happenes I actually have seen that happen at my own Range in a Match.

I am always glad to share my own hard earned lessons. I also sign-post with my actual given name. So folks can see I don't hide behind a moniker or handle.

As one friend points out it aint braging if you actually can do it and do, do it on a regular basis.

And I have a gun safe full of Big gold medals from National Championships that can back up my Elitist Claims, 1 real big one that says National Champion on it.


Folks that share hard earned facts-information then are labeled elitists, are done so by very small minded people.

KW
The Lunger
Elitist ect ect ad nausum.

[Don McDowell]

Bullet style/shape/design plays a huge roll. And yes put me down in the 50 yd thing is fun, but useless if you shoot further than 100.
I tested some bullets that were supposed to be the greatest thing ever invented shoot tiny groups to 1000. Well they did shoot good at 100 yds, not so hot at 200 and by the time they got to 300 they were spread about a foot, and about 1/3 of them hit the target sideways, at 450 IF you got one on target it landed sideways, or left an extremely oblong hole.
Have experienced this with a couple different bullets, so yup if you don't ever intend to shoot further than 100 yds , 50 works fine, but a person really needs to test the bullets and loads at the furthest distance you may ever want to shoot them.

[lwknight]

I always thought that boat tail J's were a hoax for supersonic rifles . It makes some sense that they might do better at long ranges by surviving the transonic zone.
Has anyone tried boat tail cast?

[Lead pot]

Yes.

[303Guy]

Yes.

And? There is a great deal of suspense this end!

Lead pot, I have just been thinking along those lines for reasons of avoiding boolit base deformation on firing. Also seems like a good way to keep mold edge defects away from critical areas.

Kenny, that's not bragging, it's simply telling us about it. And very interesting it is too! Especially since you are able to confirm or dispell speculations. I can't speak for others but for me, knowing there are real live folks out there who actually do these incredible feats and are willing to talk us about it is inspiring. For starters, you make me realize it is possible so now I know that whatever I may strive for is not pie in the sky - it can be done. (Maybe not by me but that's OK - someone is doing it).

[Lead pot]

I been working with this bullet for a couple years on and off with a black powder load and I really haven't found a good enough way to protect the base from getting hammered when the charge goes off.
I been shooting it with a B-Wax base wad and a patch folded into the cup base and the bottom of the bullet base covered with graphite so the wax dont stay with the bullet.
It has very good potentials but I still get some bad dirt diggers.
Or just plain wheat flour compressed slightly when seating the bullet over a card and lube wad plus a card over the compressed powder which shoots good and the recovered bullet shows that the base is protected pretty good doing this, but the pain loading this is not worth the effort from the down range results over a regular patched bullet.
But then I haven't shot it past 200 yards to really see the full potential of a rebated boat tail bullet that don't show up at close range.


Kurt

[RMulhern]

A .45 caliber bullet fired with BP may shoot 'bug-holes' at 50 yards.....and at 300 yards it may not stay on the wall of an OUTHOUSE!!

I know! Been there....done that years ago!!

[phatman]

Hello,

I've been lurking here for about a year and this is my first post!

Leadpot,
I have read that there are problems with the boat tail boolits when using black powder. But how do you think you boolit will perform with smokeless in a 458 Win Mag?

303Guy,
I have followed your adventures in PP and have learned a great deal with the excellent pictures you have posted. Thankyou

John

[Lead pot]

John,

I have no idea what a .458 BT lead bullet would do with smokeless powder, I have never shot smokeless in my Sharps or High Wall's.
The Marlin's I use smokeless with swaged jacketed flat base bullets I make because of the Micro groove bore.
At the ranges you would shoot the .458 Win with a BT or rebated boat tail bullet wouldn't show any improvement over a flat base unless you are shooting at a very long range with it.
But even then I couldn't say for sure because I never shot one past 200 yards.
At this time since the last snow I have 20 RBT bullets in a bank to see how different base protection is working and I stopped the patch at the point where the rebate starts instead folding it under, but none were shot with smokeless powder.

Kurt

[Red River Rick]

405.

Brings up A good point, Recently testing loads with .446 patched to .451 and .444 patched to .4955 bullets in the same rifle.................

KW
The Lunger
Elitist ect ect ad nausum.

KW:

There's something wrong with this equation....................

I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud..............but, could you clarify this?

Season's Greetings!


RRR

[1874Sharps]

Red River Rick,

I must think KW made a typo and meant to write .449 instead of .4955.

[Red River Rick]

1874Sharps:

No doubt, it probably is a typo. But, one never knows with these guys. Maybe this is some new way to get maximum bullet fit! Self "SWAGING"!

RRR