Slug for my SxS 12 Ga. Muzzleloader???

[Depreacher]

Hello all,

Muzzleloading Deer season will be here soon, and I don't have a ML rifle. I have a 1975 Pedersoli 12 Ga. muzzleloader w/chrome lined bores. I have loaded foster slugs I dug out of 12 Ga. Federal shotshells and accuracy was like 12 inches @ 25 yds. using 82 Gr. FFG. The federal fosters mike out at .716. My left bbl is .719 at the choke and the right is .716 at the choke. Supposedely IC and MOD depending on the bore diameter behind the chokes. Thats what the ad said anyway.

I have even thought of mounting a flat bottomed williams open rear sight at the rear of the rib, and a williams ramp on the front. I could drill and tap 4 holes for mounting and have a better sighting platform than just a bead. I have the sights I need in a box somewhere, so no expense. When deer season is over, remove the sights and put plug screws in the holes for quail season.

Any recommendations for slugs/loads, whatever. What about the lee slug. Surely it wouldn't hurt my chokes IF it would load without too much difficulty. Maybe I could use Y-MANS slugs. Any ideas fellas??? You are the experts, not me. Round ball in a shotwad, maybe???????????? ALL help is appreciated.

[longbow]

I would figure that a soft lead Foster like the Lyman might work as it casts about 0.705" (at least mine does) and if soft lead should swell up to fill the bore yet squeeze through chokes.

I am certainly not a fan of the Lyman Foster as I generally cannot get groups under 8" to 12" at 50 yards. However, it should do better.

If you use a Foster slug you should load it over hard card wads so the wads don't push into the cavity. Alternately (or maybe as well) fill it with hot melt glue. Also, with black powder I would be inclined to soak the wad under the slug in black powder lube.

Another option, maybe better is to use a round ball that will fit through the chokes (0.690" and 0.715" are common sizes) and load hard card wads then a donut wad under the ball and one over. Someone posted a link to Precision Reloading (I think) that showed pre-punched felt donut wads but they would be easy enough to make just by punching a hole in the middle of a nitro card or felt wad. The donuts keep the undersize ball centered.

I used to have a Pedersoli side by many years ago and tried 0.690" balls through it but they were wildly inaccurate. I wasn't using the donut wad idea. Not smart enough.

Shotman has had good success using round bottom plastic shotcups to center up the ball sin cartridge guns but no reason it shouldn't work in a muzzleloader. You may get plastic build up in the barrel but for a few hunting shots probably not an issue.

So, after all that rambling I guess the short answer is that round balls and donut wads or cupped plastic wads is likely your best and easiest bet. BPI sells 0.690" balls and used to sell 0.715" balls (not sure if they still do), and Track Of The Wolf sells a variety of round balls. Lee makes a 0.690" ball mould too so that is an inexpensive way to try it.

I think if loaded properly you should be able to get 4" to 6" gropus at 50 yards. I get that with round ball from my cartidge smoothbores.

Longbow

[Depreacher]

THANKS Longbow,

Had not thought about a card dounut wad to center the ball. I don't have a punch but could drill a "hopefully" centered hole. I also thought about BPI's round ball with the nylon finns attached but they are expensive. Using plastic shotcups has always worried me a little. Some like a Winchester white AA wad have a lot of space between the bottom of the wad and the bottom of the shotcup. With smokeless, no problem, but with black I am not sure. I have shot 40 or 50 AA's in the past with no ill effects, but with my luck the next shot will ring the bbl. The Pedersoli has thin bbls. Total weight of gun is 5lbs. 9 oz.. With 90 gr. FFG/1 1/4 oz. shot, That soft steel buttplate is not soft enough. I hate to put a rubber ducky on the butt of such a neat shotgun though. THANKS again for your good advice. Depreacher

[tommygirlMT]

My recommendation would be a Lyman 525gr. airgun pellet shaped slug inside a Fed 12S4 wad loaded over a lube cooky set up. The Fed 12S4 wad is the stiffest modern shot wad in existence and doesn't create any black powder not compressed = CA-BOOMBA at wrong end of barrel problems --- I have used it myself with BP in cartridge loads. A lube cookie made up of a 12ga felt wad completely saturated with bore butter between two 12ga. nitro cards over the powder and under the 12S4 with the slug inside should keep both powder and plastic fowling to a minimum.

[longbow]

He is loading from the muzzle and with choked barrels so it would be very difficult to get a plastic wad past the chokes not to mention that with the Lyman sabot slug inside the wad it is bore diameter so wouldn't fit.

However, if the Lyman 525 gr. slug could be kept centered in the bore maybe with an inverted gas seal under and one over (Like the donut wad idea) it might give good accuracy and would pack a little more punch that a round ball. It is smaller than the chokes so could be muzzleloaded easily.

The gas seals would have to be tipped to get them into the choked muzzles but it may be doable.

I used to use two or three 1/8" nitro card wads in my Pedersoli because they were easier to get past the chokes than a thick hard card wad.

I almost cut the chokes off so I could patch round balls and get decent accuracy. Couldn't bring myself to do it though.

Longbow

[Depreacher]

THANKS TommygirlMT and Longbow,

Actually both Win and Rem wads will get past the chokes without much trouble, but I have never loaded Fed 12S4 wads. Even a 1/8" nitro card will go down either bbl. if turned sideways and slid down a borebuttered bore. if the Lyman 525 would slip into the FED 12S4 wad AFTER (maybe before?) the wad has been seated over a saturated felt/nitro card combo, it would shoot of course, but would the overbore diameter of the 525 in the FED 12S4 combo damage my chokes?? Would it be overbore since lyman states its diameter as .681??? I have no idea how much the petals surrounding the slug would compress??? If it measures an actual .681 then I have 35 thou. to squeeze the petals by on one bbl. and 38 thou. on the other. Maybe the rounded gas seals, or doughnut wads over and under would be best. THANKS for the help gents, as this is unchartered waters for me. Anyone know the dia. of the LEE slugs???? THANKS AGAIN

[tommygirlMT]

Getting the 12S4 pushed through the choked barrel with the slug completely inside it or putting the 12S4 down the barrel and then putting the slug down the barrel and getting it to slip inside the wad petals without snagging at least one of them up inside it's hollow base instead of slipping inside ------- well either be a good magic trick.

I was thinking put the lube cookie in then put the 12S4 in so that about half an inch of petals still sticks out the end of the barrel and then slipping the bottom flare of the slug inside the protruding petals and then push the slug in which will push the wad in but when it pops through the choke portion the bottom of the slug is already started correctly so it slips right inside the wad like it is suppost too would be the way to get it done ------ I will try it with one of my choke tubes and report if it works or not.

As far as actually firing ------- I have fired both the Lee and Lyman slugs that go inside a wad through all types of chokes including full-choke. All it does is shear the petals off the wads ------ no harm done. Concevably one could split a barrel but in my experience it would have to be an awfully thin and week barrel. I'm thinking mabey rusted old damascus with 0.050" thick metal at the muzzle ??????? If your gun is that bad it should be a wall hanger anyway.

The Lee slug is just very slightly smaller diameter then the Lyman in my experience -------- a couple thous of an inch or so, mainly because Lee holds their tolerances on the "tight" end on all their molds.

As an after though ----------- it really bugs me that they don't as a rull make muzzle loading shotguns with jug chokes --------- for ease of loading that would be the right way to do a muzzle loader shotty.

[tommygirlMT]

Okay, I just finished taking some 12S4 wads, bore butter, Lyman slugs, and Lee slugs and attempting to muzzle load them through various size choke tubes intended for convention shotguns on the kitchen counter using my muzzle loader ball starter (round wooden ball with short length of round dowel sticking out one end). I was able to sucessfully muzzle load both the Lyman and the Lee slug through all choke constrictions up to and including full-choke. However, the tighter chokes especially the full choke with the Lyman slug involved double fist "pertending to be a pissed off Gorilla" force and sheared or almost sheared off the shot cup petals at loading.

Observations:

--- If I can shear the petals off with double fist "pertending to be a pissed off Gorilla" hand force the possibility of this spliting the choke is very minimal to say the least. When is the last time someone split a steel barrel via hand pressure?
--- The Lee slugs are easier to muzzle load then the Lyman not because they require less force but rather because the process to muzzle load is less intricit.
--- Due to petal compression/shearing at loading I would not recommend muzzle loading either slug inside a plastic wad in a choke constriction tighter then "Modified".


To load the Lyman slug you insurt the 12S4 with a light finger tip coating of bore butter on the outside (loading lubercant) until ther is only about a 1/4" of the petals sticking out the end of the bore then you insurt the base of the slug into the wad and then pinch the petals down around the wasp waist of the slug as tightly as you can with your finger nails and then push the slug into the barrel with the muzzle loader ball starter in the other hand. If done correctly the wad is pushed through the choke with only the bottom (smaller diameter) band of the slug inside the petals. Once this is pushed beyond the choke section the slug seats itself entirely inside the wad and then the wad/slug combination can be driven home and seated on top of the BP charge. The process for loading of the Lee slug is the same except for the fact that since the Lee slug has no wasp waist and smoothly tapers to a slightly larger diameter at the middle of the slug from a slightly smaller diameter at the base there is no need to keep the petals tight to the middle of the slug manually to keep the slug from seating itself all the way inside the wad right away before it has been pushed through the choke.

Both the Lyman and Lee slugs I used were cast from nearly pure lead ---- I like harder alloy personally but when casting softer alloys will drop at slightly smaller diameter so for this muzzle loading pure lead casts would be the thing to use. For purformance and ease of casting I would still use the Lyman slug even though it's more difficult to muzzle load in this fashion if it were me doing this.

[longbow]

tommygirlMT:

Jug chokes ~ a great idea! It seems they used to be fairly common but not so any more as far as I can find. The only references I find current are a Knight Muzzleloading shotgun with jug choke.

I found loading my Pedersoli a bit of a pain due to the chokes and wanted to patch round balls or use other slugs but couldn't bring myself to cut the chokes off.

Jug choking should suit both shot and slug (not sure about patched ball ~ might lose the patch in the choke?). Don't know where you would get it done nowadays either though. I suppose a long time with a cylinder hone might do it but my understanding is that they were reamed. It would be very difficult to get a precision job with a hone.

Pedersoli does make a 12 ga. slug gun now but of course it is cylinder bore so limited usefulness with shot, other than buckshot. I do like versatility.

If you ever find anyone offering jug choking service or reamers for jug choking I would like to try it.

Longbow

[Depreacher]

THANKS tommygirlMT and longbow. Good advice well taken. My Pedersoli is in 98%condition and has IC and MOD chokes so I'm good to go. I will post results later. THANKS AGAIN

[WildShot]

Just thought I would post a comment or two. This is pretty close to a current project that I am working on. Just finished casting up a bunch of the Lyman slugs for a single tube muzzy and trying to find the time to go shoot them.

Beware of purchased RB’s. I have some .715’s that I got from BPI that are so hard they do not expand when shot into a box of sand at 25 yds. For mz velocities, I prefer as close to pure pb as I can get.

One of my better loads is using a wonder wad over the powder, then a .715 (with no patch) and a wonder wad to hold it in place. With 80 gr Pyrodex RS it is very accurate at limited range. To prepare the ball, I tumble them in a case tumbler until the sprue disappears and then coat them with ALOX.

Patched balls are not easy to load in a jug choked gun. May times the ball will slip past the patch. Too frustrating to try in the deer woods. I have better luck with the TK2K and the Lyman slug. Have killed several deer with that combo. I use the IC choke tube so the slug never touches the choke on the way out. This really makes the last 8” of the barrel just extra weight to carry. Current project is the Encore 209x12 with the Lyman slugs and the AA trap wad.

BPI sells a gas seal called the X12X that may work as a replacement for the wonder wad in the bare ball load. I have some but have never tried them for that purpose but they look like they might help keep the ball centered.

[Play Hard]

I have a Pedersoli 12 ga double with screw in chokes. With two cyl chokes installed I get pie plate accuracy at 70 yards from both barrels (same pie plate) using the following load: 90 gr American Pioneer, whole fiber wad, dry flannel shirt patch, .695 ball. I stick a 1/4 inch magnet cube on for a rear sight and it works pretty good!

[ZoroMan]

I would try a patched round ball. This is a muzzleloader so, I would try a .695 round ball with a fairly thick patch. The .715's are probably way to fat to get in your muzzles.

I shoot round ball in my 12 gauge smoothie double and get 4 inch accuracy at 50 yards!