Help with identity...

[badgeredd]

OK...I'm guessing this forum will be the best place to ask this. My wife (bless her little heart) went garage saling today and picked up some stuff for me.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=60239

One item is an old H&R 410. Its barrel is marked "410-44 CAL"......what the heck does that mean? I'm guessing it is a short 410 shell but I am shotgun ignorant......

HELP!!!!!

Edd

[wiljen]

These were made in the 1910s and 1920s and were for the 44 XL Shot cartridge. Measure the chamber as many were 2 inch chambers and while a 2 1/2 inch 410 will fit, it should not be fired in it.

[badgeredd]

These were made in the 1910s and 1920s and were for the 44 XL Shot cartridge. Measure the chamber as many were 2 inch chambers and while a 2 1/2 inch 410 will fit, it should not be fired in it.

Thanks Will. that's what I wondered about, the length of the correct shell. I JUST thought about the Cartridges Of The World books I have in the reloading room....well DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

Edd

[billw]

One item is an old H&R 410. Its barrel is marked "410-44 CAL"......what the heck does that mean? I'm guessing it is a short 410 shell but I am shotgun ignorant......

HELP!!!!!

Edd

Edd,
Not to worry as I have one of those. It belonged to my great grandfather and I've had it since I was 11, some 53 years ago. It had no firing pin but just had one made for it. I haven't fired it and don't know what chamber length it has. I will fire form a 303 Brit case for a short brass shell about 2.1" OAL and use a few 410 plastic shells for testing loads. I have a few shot wads. I have no idea about the 44 cal unless it fired a 44-40. I have a .429 Keith mould and .451 RB mould for a slug depending on fit in a shell. I'll do some fitting before I shoot it with shot or RB.
Bill McGraw

[badgeredd]

Thanks Bill.

I hadn't considered any of the bottle necked brass as a basis for a shell...good idea. My chamber is slightly less than 2 1/2" long. A 2 1/2" shell will chamber but there is no room for the crimp to expand into...therefore as Wiljen mentioned, I'll have to come up with a custom shell...no store boughts for this gun. Since I haven't and don't plan to load for shot shells for anything else, I'll be loading these purely as a curiosity. I'm thinking that I will be learning here with this one for sure!!!!!! It seems to me that this should be a fun little gun with a 2" shot load and depending on the choke, I may be able to come up with a low power slug load too. Thank you for the idea.

Edd

[klcarroll]

@Bageredd;

It sounds like a neat little toy!!

If I were loading for it, .....I'd just cut a modern plastic case down to 2.00", and use a roll crimp. (The roll crimp will maximize the available space for shot.)

....You could also probably work up a cute little load featuring three 00Buck pellets in a trimmed shotcup! (I load a five pellet load for my 3" .410s, and a four pellet load for the 2.5" hulls: .....They give a little gun a serious "punch"!)

Kent

[longbow]

I certainly don't know for sure but it may have a chamber for .44-40 shot shells as previously mentioned.

I had an uncle who somehow came across a Marble's Game Getter which was a break action handgun with folding wire buttstock. It came in .22/.44 smoothbore over under.

There is a picture on page 103 of my 3rd edition of Cartridges of the World. Shown are 3 different .44 shotshells and a round ball load.

I tried or years to get that gun as my uncle didn't shoot. He wouldn't give it or sell it. When he died there was no trace of it in the house so I suspect he threw it away.

In any case, back to your question ~ it wouldn't surprise me to find that there were short .410 loads and that it handled both .410 and the .44 shot loads.

Longbow

[billw]

Longbow, Kent and Edd,
Re the H&R 410: thanks for the info on short cases and 44-40 shot loads. I have a box of 44-40's I was going to resize to 38-40 but now I have a beginning of something else. I'll cast Cerrosafe into the chamber and see what will fit. I have no means to roll crimp or form a folded crimp with cut off plastics but will certainly cut some wads for OS and rubber cement them or shoot without cement. I will try some light loads of Unique, later some 2400 and 4227 for the heavier loads. I'm having fun with great grandpa's shotgun and I have a safe full of more interesting guns to shoot. But that is how it is--one tangent after another. No wonder non shooters don't understand us. By the way, I'll anneal the 303 Brit neck before fireforming with cream of wheat filler.

[billw]

"Thanks Bill.

I hadn't considered any of the bottle necked brass as a basis for a shell...good idea."

The 303 Brit was close but not close enough. I annealed the neck and shoulder, loaded 4.0 gr of Bullseye and topped off with compressed cornmeal and a piece of paper wad and after it fired, it was comical. The upper end was only 0.010" larger in diameter but it looked larger. A second anneal down to the head with water up to the head did not fire form at all, too thick at that point. I'll hang that case on the wall with all the other broken parts.

Fired 410 plastics would not fit the chamber at 0.475" at the brass/steel heads and I sized them in a 45 ACP FLS die and they chambered OK. I still am not sure of the chamber OAL but 2.25" appears to be correct from the Cerrosafe cast. The 303 Brit case was only 2.100" and did not touch the transition.

I'll look for other straight wall cases that will fit, only need one for testing or a single 410 brass case if someone has a spare. I'm still looking for a Lee Loader in 410 in the hopes I can fold crimp plastics with it.

[sav300]

Maybe 444 marlin?

[billw]

Maybe 444 marlin?

Yes, the 444 Marlin is the closest fit to my chamber cast. The base might be slightly large but the 45 ACP FLS die will fix that. The OAL is about right for the old H&R short chamber. 44-40 cases fit well but I had to shave 0.007" from the 303 Brit case head as it wouldn't close on the thick rim, cutting with a stone until "FC and 303 Brit" headstamp was stoned away.

I was looking thru my 12 ga brass collection, 10 and 11 ga wads and found a large coffee can full of 410 shells, plastics and paper ones I had picked up over many years and had forgotten about them. I found serveral hundred 410 shotwads I had forgotten I had when I was loading 45 ACP shot loads from 308 Win brass. I only had about 6 plastic shells to reload until I found theese. It counts to be a junk collector when one finally finds something one needs no matter how deeply they are buried under 6 feet of other junk. Now all I need to do is find my Buck knife folder and my multitool that are mysteriously missing and I hate to lose those two.

I would be pleased if someone would send me a few 444 Marlin or 410 brass shotshells. I'm still looking for a reasonably priced Lee Loader for 410.