38/44 recreate: Enough gun? and What Boolit?

[kcollins]

Hey folks.
Been looking around here for awhile.
Lots of great info.

Been reloading for years but I just cast my first batch yesterday.
Don't know why I waited so long!
Lots of fun.

To the question.
I have been reading up on the old .38/44.
Was thinking about trying to work up some loads.

I have a GP100 I picked up last year for a song, brand new.
It is a blued 4 inch, fixed sight, full lug in .38 special.
Ruger's answer to the model 10, I guess.
Wanting some stiffer loads.
Will it stand up to .38/44 level loads?
I figure it would, but it is not a very common variation and can't find confirmation.

What bullet would you recommend that still has molds in production?
I have a Lee 158 RN FP and have seen mention of 358156 and the 170 gr. keith in it.


Thanks. Kendall

[vanilla_gorilla]

I got in on the 358429 group buy last month for the purpose of making .38-44 loads. I am currently still in the experimentation mode, but I tried a very nice load today of the 358429 over 12.5 grains of 2400. This is actually a touch over the original .38-44 level, but close enough for me. Out of my 5 inch S&W Model 27 I got an average of 1233 fps. I also tried 13 grains and had every intention of going to 13.5, but after checking my primers and brass, I think I'll let that one go.

Your GP-100 should have no problems with this load, but beware that this load is MY load fired in MY gun. Your mileage may vary (greatly). It is my understanding that there is no difference between the .38 GP-100 and the .357 except for the shorter chambers. Lockwork is the same, so I've read.

Many people will ask why you have any desire to cram what is essentially a .357 Magnum load into a .38 case, and everybody has their own answer. Mine is twofold: first, I enjoy the history of using the same powder, bullet, and load as the great shooters of the past, such as EMK. Secondly, I pretty much get all the free .38 Special brass I want, but I have to buy .357 brass, either virgin brass or loaded ammo.

[Bret4207]

The 38/44 is essentially a 38 +P+. The GP 100 should handle it fine.

[kcollins]

Thanks for the info guys.
I figured the GP was up to the task but thought I would check.
I will work up slowly, of course.

Another question.
How fast can the plain base 358429 be pushed?
I have marlin 1894 in .357 and it would be nice to use whatever load I come up with in it as well. But, as I am sure you know, that kicks the velocity up a quite a bit. I figured I would aim for about 1100 fps out of the revolver.

Would I be better off with a gas check bullet like the 358156?
Been reading a couple of old Skeeter Skelton articles and he liked the 358156 and 2400 in heavy .38 and .357.

Whatever I get. I think I will have one of the cavities hollow pointed if that colors anyones recomendations.

[beagle]

Look at Castpics/articles/High Speed .38 Loads.

I was essentially reproducing the old .38/44 loads for that article. Beware of using old data for the .38/44 with 2400 as the burn rate has changed since the .38/44 days. Tone the loads down some.

It's fairly easy to come up with safe, 1,000 FPS loads for a strong .38 Special.

Now, I shoot mine in a Ruger Blackhawk .357 but have shot a few in a M15 Smith. Of course, it's my "using" load in the .357 Marlin carbine here on the farm.

The .38 Special is a fine cartridge when loaded up and used in a strong gun. Ove the years, it has been castrated by ammo companies over the fear that they would find themselves in an old, weak .38 Special revolver./beagle

[zxcvbob]

The .38 Special is a fine cartridge when loaded up and used in a strong gun. Ove the years, it has been castrated by ammo companies over the fear that they would find themselves in an old, weak .38 Special revolver./beagle

That's true. Of course during the same period, bullets have gotten a *lot* better. SWC hollow-points vs. LRN.

[Char-Gar]

I have a 34/44 Heavy Duty Smith and wesson (4" bbl) and I used a charge of 7.5/AA5 for a velocity of 1,100 and a pressure of 24.5K CUP (calculated). The bullet is 358156 HP.

[kcollins]

More good stuff!

Beagle:
I had read your article in doing my research.
Very well done and thorough.

The "cheap" factor appeals to me.
I would love to be able to use a plain base and faster powder while still get some decent velocity from the GP and avoid leading in the marlin.

What bullet and powder did you settle on?
On paper, the 358429 and Unique looks like a good combo.

Thanks, Kendall

[zxcvbob]

On paper, the 358429 and Unique looks like a good combo.

If you like Unique for this application, you'll love Herco. 8.0 grains (from memory) is a nice .357 Magnum load with 158 grain boolits. So probably 7.0 in .38 Special brass (painted red, of course) for a .38/44 load?

I can crunch the numbers tonight. #358429 is EK's 173 grain SWC with a big nose, right?

[kcollins]

Never used Herco.
How well does it meter?

Yes, it is the Keith SWC.

[zxcvbob]

It meters just like Unique.

Cartridge          : .38 Special +P (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .357, 168, LYM LSWC 358429
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.590 inch or 40.39 mm
Barrel Length      : 5.0 inch or 127.0 mm
Powder             : Alliant HERCO

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   61     5.20    884     292   15729   4403     97.3    0.793  ! Near Maximum !
-18.0   63     5.33    902     303   16514   4521     97.8    0.773  ! Near Maximum !
-16.0   65     5.46    919     315   17322   4635     98.3    0.754  ! Near Maximum !
-14.0   66     5.59    937     327   18153   4747     98.7    0.736  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-12.0   68     5.72    954     339   19007   4855     99.0    0.719  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-10.0   69     5.85    971     351   19885   4960     99.3    0.703  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-08.0   71     5.98    987     364   20787   5062     99.6    0.687  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-06.0   72     6.11   1004     376   21714   5160     99.7    0.672  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0   74     6.24   1020     388   22665   5254     99.9    0.658  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0   75     6.37   1036     400   23642   5344    100.0    0.644  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0   77     6.50   1052     413   24644   5431    100.0    0.631  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0   78     6.63   1068     425   25672   5515    100.0    0.618  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   80     6.76   1083     438   26726   5599    100.0    0.606  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   81     6.89   1098     450   27807   5683    100.0    0.595  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   83     7.02   1113     462   28916   5766    100.0    0.583  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   85     7.15   1128     475   30052   5849    100.0    0.573  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     77     6.50   1084     439   28273   5281    100.0    0.592  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     77     6.50   1005     377   20957   5478     97.9    0.683  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

[kcollins]

Sounds like I need to give that a try.
Easier to find than Unique these days as well.
Thanks for running the numbers.