Heavy Bullets in .45 Auto Rim

[Grapeshot]

Ever since the mid 1970's I've had a M1917 revolver of one sort or another. I started out with a Colt and owned four S&W's over the years. I finally picked up a S&W 625 with a four inch barrel in 1989. I really dispised the half-moon and full moon clips I was forced to use to get the cases out of the chambers after I fired the .45ACP ammo.

I had about 500 .45 Auto Rim cases that I picked up in 1990 and put up until recently. Factory Remington .45AR came with a 230 grain lead bullet loaded to .45 ACP spec's. This did not endear me to round at first.

I had purchased a copy of "Pet Loads" from Wolfe Publishing and found that the author had made .455 Elly ammo from .45 AR brass by turning the rims thinner from the front of the rim.

He then loaded them up with 250 to 265 grain lead bullets on top of some stiff loads of smokeless powder.

He was using these loads in a Colt New Service chambered in .455 Elly.

I took that data and began using it in the .45 AR in my S&W 625. Man! What a difference. The 230 grain bullets had been mild, but fairly accurate. These loads, using the .45 Keith LSW from the Lyman Mold, and sized to .454 were stout and very accurate.

A solid hit on a #10 can of peanut butter litterally split the seam, peeled the lid back and sent a geyser of PB into the air. Yes, the cast bullet was a bit soft, like maybe 15 to 1 lead to tin.

Anyhow, that load not only split that can but I punched a hole through an old car that had been abbandoned in that old quarry with another shot.

I also loaded up some LEE .45RNFP's in the .45 AR with similar results.

Long range shooting at 100 yards at clay pigeons and tin cans was more fun, and required the use of kentucky windage at times to hit them.

The best bullet I fired was a Lyman Gas Cheched SWC at 230 grains.

For my money, give me the .45 AR over the .357 any day.

Anyone else have some info on the .45 AR to share?

[softpoint]

I shoot 45ACP, .45 AR, and .45 Super out of these. Two loads that have always been favorites are the Lyman 200 gr SWC with 6 gr. 231, good everyday accurate load, 13.5 grains of 2400 with Lyman 250 gr SWC, accurate also, pretty hot, work up to this slowly, good for hogs and deer

[35remington]

The single best tip I can give is for the heavier than standard weight Auto Rim bullets, such as the 250-255 SWC's and RF's.

Casting these weight bullets soft or even of ACWW's gives significantly poorer accuracy in my AR revolvers than hardnesses approximating HTWW's. A hard bullet significantly reduces the skidding present in these revolvers due to the relatively high velocities at which the bullet strikes the forcing cone. The heavy inertia of the 250 grain bullets wants to ride over the rifling rather than turn with it. This is directly opposed to the slower velocity rifling engagement of an autoloader barrel, which doesn't have to "crash" into the end of a separate barrel after jumping through a long chamber throat and barrel/cylinder gap.

A hard bullet increases the grip the shallow rifling has on the bullet, substantially reducing skidding and improving accuracy.

A study of recovered bullets shows the differences quite plainly.

Lighter bullets with less inertia, such as the various 185 grain target type SWC's of good bearing surface, may be shot of softer alloys with good results.

[358wcf]

I have been shooting my S&W model 25 45AutoRim since the mid-80s. It is an extremely accurate revolver, and has been a constant hunting companion for years. My best hunting shot with it was a Belding Ground Squirrel shot in the neck at 60 paces, with witnesses! A lucky shot, but not outrageous, as this gun is routinely shot at 50yd bullseyes with great success.
It has never had a jacketed round through it, nor a factory load- I standarized years ago on the 200gr RCBS SWC over 6.5gr Unique. A mild load, but, Oh, so accurate! I've recently acquired a Lyman 452423 single cav mold (238gr SWC) to try for a better hunting type load, with a HUGE meplat to transfer every bit of energy to the target. Velocity is not in the cards with this big revolver, but you can be very sure that it will hit whatever target you choose. Big, heavy, strong, with a superb action- it doesn't get much better.
I've no need to over-stress this gun, as I have a 4" S&W 44Special if I feel the need for more power- it, too, is superbly accurate- another story.
Long live the AutoRim. I've set aside a large amount of new brass over the years, expecting it to disappear from the market, but the AutoRim just lives on and on--

358wcf

[StrawHat]

There have been at least two runs of the 452423 boolit done as group buys. Both shoot well according to all reports.

I have loaded some 255 Lee SWCs in the ACP case for my 25-2 and my 4" N frame but apparently used too soft an alloy. Now, having read the post by 35 Remington, I will stiffen the mix and see how it goes.

[Throwback]

I have loaded 255 & 265 grains as cast myself and primarily used Accurate 7 and Blue Dot. I also used the 300 grain LFN .452 by Cast Precision I think, with a dose of Accurate 9. Accurate 9 definitely showed a sweet spot in accuracy and extreme spread when I found the right load. I backed off of the heaviest charges tried in the interest of safety and optimal accuracy but only by measuring case head expansion was there any evidence of approaching maximum preassures. At no time did primers or extraction indicate an issue.

The velocity of my maximum load is surprising given the weight of the projectile. I will only share a starting load however. 10.7 grains of Accurate 9 generated 763 fps and a 27 fps extreme spread. I tried lighter loads but they are not advised with this powder as performance was erratic at best. I used a Smith M22 TR with a 4-inch barrel and both AR & ACP cases with a heavy crimp.

[softpoint]

I have that 238 gr. mold as well. Thats an old design Lyman that was made specifically for .45 AR. Makes a good bullet in the 1911, too if you can get it to feed well. It does have a shorter nose and a larger meplat than the other Lyman plainbase ,which I have as well. The longer bullet is a little more accurate in my guns, though. BTW, I have a .44 S&W Mountain gun too, and my 4" inch 625 weighs the same, according to my Lyman electronic trigger pull scale. The .44 has a thin tapered barrel, but the 625 has a shorter cylinder and bigger holes in it.
I use a mix of wheelweights and linotype , about 20 lbs clip on weights to 1 lb linotype and water drop. I use this same mix and water drop for all my casting except paper patch, where I use pure lead, or as close as I can get.

[Char-Gar]

I noticed that Buffalo Bore ammo is now selling 45 Auto 'Rim ammo with 255 grain FN cast bullets going 1,000 fps.

[softpoint]

Here are some of the different bullets I use in my 625's,1, 200 gr Lyman in AR case, 6.0 gr. 231,2, 238 gr Lyman ACP case, power pistol powder. 3,250 gr. Lyman, AR case, 13.5 gr 2400. 4, 200 gr . Speer (now obsolete) the "flying ashtray" hollowpoint, 45 Super case, power pistol powder.
The #1 load is my most used load. # 3 is a top hunting, or "woods" load, # 4 over 1200 fps with the speer HP, Hope I never need to find out, but I believe it should have a calming effect on any social situation that gets out of hand. I did bust a coyote at about 30 yards with it, and it did calm him....
BTW, Elmer Keith used a harder alloy when casting for the Auto Rim than he did for his .44 magnums, (his article in the old RCBS manual)

[Bret4207]

Lets remember to add the caveat that in older 1917 Colts and S+W's these hotter loads may be too much. I love my Smith '17 and medium loads do fine. I'd also love a modern 45 wheelgun, but the funds are lacking. Still, the 45 AR is a lot of fun and darned interesting to play with.

[Char-Gar]

Bret's caution about the older Pre-War pistols is well taken. Back in the 60s Skeeter Skelton wrote an article entitled "Poor Man's Magnum" about the Colt 1917 and the 260 grain Keith bullet (454244) over 7.5/Unique and how great that load was.

Sometime later he cracked the cylinder of that pistol with that load. He rebarreled and recylindered the pistol to 44 Special. At one time I owned that pistol for a brief time.

You want to keep bullet weight and pressure to factory standards in those old sixguns.

Today I own;

Colt 1917
Smith and Wesson 1939 Brazilian (3)
SMith and Wesson 25-2 (2)
Smith and Wesson 625
Ruger Blackhawk with a 45 ACP cylinder
USFA SA with a 45 ACP cylinder
Colt Govt Model 45 ACP
Norinco 1911A1 (2) in 45ACP

You might say I like the 45 ACP/AR round. My prefered bullets is good old 452423. The RCBS 230. We have run six cavity Lee custom mold buys in both 452423 and a clone of the RCBS bullet.

I have killed several Whitetail deer and many lesser critters with these pistols and others like them. I see no need to go heavier than 240 grains in these pistols.

240 grain Keith SWC (452423) over 7.5/Unique in either the AR or ACP case will give you and honest 950 fps in a 4" bbl sixgun and 1,050 in a 6 incher. That load is a real thumper.

YOu can run that bullet up to 1,200 with some scary 2400 loads, but I choose not to do so. My old shooting mentor once told me.."If you want to drive a bigger nail, get a bigger hammer.". NO sense trying to turn a 45 AR into a 44 Magnum with redline loads. Get a 44 Mag if you need to do that. They are wonderful pistols also.

I started shooting before this heavy bullet fad got started and have never been bitten by that bug as I know from experience the standard weights to work just fine. We don't have moose and elk in Texas and even if we did, I would use a rifle.

[Dale53]

Chargar;
I have two 625's (a 625-6 with 5" barrel and a 625-8 Jerry Miculek Special with 4" barrel). These two seem to go with me to the range every time I go. Here's a target I shot yesterday that tends to show why I have such affection for the .45 Auto Rim revolver:



This was shot standing at 25 yards. It's no big deal to a dedicated bullseye shooter but at my age (74) I am elated! This is not uncommon performance with my 625's. This particular target was shot with a target load (4.5 grs of 5066 behind a MeHec H&G #68 Clone .452" bullet with CCI primers). I use Starline .45 Auto Rim brass mostly, although I have shot a bushel basket of .45 ACP loads using full moon clips (and yes, I use tools to re and de moon the clips). Also, for range use I find the RIMZ polymer clips to work extremely well with just your fingers. Lots of options with the 625's...

My big game hunting is probably behind me (getting to old to drag the deer out of the woods) but I sure wouldn't feel "left out" if I had only the .45 Auto Rim and a good heavy bullet (240-250 grs) load for the purpose.

It's one of the most useful cartridges around. It is extremely easy to get match quality reloads with a variety of bullets and powders. My two revolvers (and those of several friends) all seem to lack "ammo sensitivity" - they just flat seem to work with most any reasonable load. A few months ago, I shot a target at 25 yards (the timed fire target) with two different SWC's and three powder charges with one of my 625's. The target scored 100x100. Now, THAT is versatile!

I certainly would NOT try to "hot rod" a model 1917 revolver but the 625's seem to be up for a 250 gr bullet at 1000 fps with a proper powder without problems. Frankly, a 250 gr .452" bullet at 900-1000 fps is a LOT of gun for all 'round practical use.

Dale53

[Char-Gar]

Dale.. I have a 5" 625 that I bought new when they first came out in 1989. It just must be the most accurate sixgun I have over shot. When I got it, I called Deacon Deason to have a pair of his Skeeter Bear Hug grips made for it. He had one also and he raved and raved about it, until I started to get antsy about the phone bill. He was having a very good time on my dime.

That same year, I bought a 5" 626 (44 Mag) and it also deliver accuracy way above normal for Smith and Wesson pistols. That must have been some sort of magic year at Springfield.

I am 67 and still shooting, but like you no longer have a desire to rim canyons and drag dead animals. I have a vast storehouse of memories about doing such things and that is enough for me.

I recall back in the late 80s waking up one morning with an inch of snow on top of the tarp I had over my Eddie Bauer goose down bag. I was sleeping in the open bed of my pickup on the Canadian River breaks on the Texas Panhandle. As I crawled out of that bag and got dressed for the morning hunt I had and "ah-haa" moment. This old crap isn't fun any more and I can't believe I ever thought it was! That was the beginning of the end of my hunting. I hung on some more years, but it never had the hold on me it once had.

[anachronism]

My source of loading data has been the older Speer manuals, under 45 ACP. They show data for 260 gr .452 & some of it's really smokin'.

[Char-Gar]

"My source of loading data has been the older Speer manuals, under 45 ACP. They show data for 260 gr .452 & some of it's really smokin'. "

Be careful with those old Speer loads. The text from Speer No. 3 on those loads reads..

"The cases used were of the folded head type and reloaders might find it impossible to load as much powder in solid head cases"..Speer No. 3, page 204.

Those max loads in today's cases are way beyond the red line. Speer wised up and stop publishing that data for good reason.

That old Speer data can be useful to study, but is it apples and oranges with todays loading components. Folks need to know that.

[Dale53]

Charger;
>>>I recall back in the late 80s waking up one morning with an inch of snow on top of the tarp I had over my Eddie Bauer goose down bag. I was sleeping in the open bed of my pickup on the Canadian River breaks on the Texas Panhandle.<<<

I raced motorcyles for five years, then a ten year break for kids and family, then ANOTHER five years, for a total of ten years. During this same time, I did a LOT of back packing. Generally, by myself, but sometimes with friends. Also, was HEAVY into paddling canoes and kayaks (still have three canoes and one Folbot Single kayak). I can remember one winter canoe trip when I woke up (in a three wall Baker's tent) with hoar frost hanging 6" off the trees. It was a glorious paddle that weekend, tho'. I have put more ACTION into my life than any three people i know. For that, and many other things, I am MOST grateful.

I had a wonderful understanding wife (we celebrated out 51st Wedding Anniversary this past June) that helped make all of this possible.

I can't do what I used to do but I sure didn't hang around and WISH when I was young enough to do it. I DID it, just like you. They say that "Everything in its own time.". I believe that but I will have a smile on my face from what I DID do when they plant me. In the meantime, I continue to do what I CAN do. Right now, it is shooting, writing, and photography (see the latest issue of The Single Shot Rifle Journal).

I concur completely with you regarding the old Speer manuals. Speer #8 got me into serious trouble when it was current. I was loading and shooting loads for my Model 19 (6") that was under max in the Speer #8 and thoroughly enjoying them. Under circumstances too complicated to go into here, I learned that my "favorite" load was over 60,000 psi in a pressure barrel!!! You might say my naivete ended at that point.

Here is a picture of one of my most favorite handguns - the 625-6 Model of 1989 in .45 ACP:





Dale53

[Cannoneer]

I to am getting on in years, but I still like to go shooting and show off for the younger soldiers that come out to the range. My favorite load is a Lyman 230 grain SWC w/GC over a 6 grain charge of Unique and a Wnchester LP primer. Very accurate out to 100 yards and deadly on varments, (2 and 4 legged varieties). I've shot the Keith style SWC's as well as the Lee RNFP cast boolits for years out of my 1988 S&W 625. Even with it's four inch barrel, if I do my part it will hit where I am aiming.

If I have to get rid of all my other revolvers, This is the one I'll be keeping.

[Depreacher]

Hey Guys,

Just in case some of you that own a fine old Webley that has been altered to accept .45 auto moon clipped/.45AR ammo please read on. These do not need to be shot with anything more powerful than 250 gr/5.2 gr. unique loads or equivalent thereof. I was using 5.5 gr unique behind a .452 250 cast but was told by a much wiser member to cool even that down a little. I will be shooting 5 gr. unique now for the 250's, or 5.1 for 230 TC's from my new Lee mould. We need to realise these 'ol sisters are 90+ years old.

A few months back, my MK6 and I shamed my 'ol shooting cronie, and his new Kimber .45. Life is made of sweet moments like these. Depreacher

[The Virginian]

Couple of minor well intended corrections: In the Pet Loads article the parent brass to make .455 Colt/Eley was .45 Colt, cut down and thinned from the front of the rim. I am sure you could do the same thing with .45 Auto Rim. Also, the S&W 1917 made for the Brazilians was the model of 1937, not 1939. I too would caution people not to push the old guns and down load them to .455 Webley velocities with the heavy bullets. Even shooting GI ball spec ammo in them is going to put extra stress on them.

[Char-Gar]

you are correct it is the Model of 1937 and note I did not use the term Model. 1937 was the year Brazil addopted the pistol, but the first run of 25,000 was not delivered until 1938 and 1939. Mine was one of the last to be deliver in 1939. They were delivered in batches as they were made. These were all new manufacture and addition to the serial numbers are numbered 1-25000 on the backstrap.

After WWII (ordered in 1946 and delivered in 1947), Brazil ordered another 25,000 pistols. These were made up by Smith of left over 1917 parts, some 1939 parts and a few parts made at the time of the order. These pistols have no number on the backstrap and can be found with frames that cover the period from 1917 until 1939 with the different safety types.

I should have been more accurate in my original post back in 2009. I should have said I have a 1939 Brazilian and a 1947 Brazilian.

If you are going to correct a fellow, it is always a good idea to read the original post with great care to determine what he is saying ,to be certain he is indeed saying, what you think he is saying. On a number of times, I have been tempted to make a correction, but always go back and read the post several times and often realize I have misunderstood the original post.

I have no qualms about shooting USGI ball ammo in my Colt 1917 and the aforementioned two Brazilians.