Homemade black powder

[windrider919]

Just so you know, the 'carbon burning compound' he mentions below is Vitamin C

Quote from: © 2004, 2005 by Randy Wakeman

TRIPLE SEVEN, BLACK MAG3, GOEX CLEAR SHOT

Now we get into an area where the muzzleloading industry has drifted into a mess of double-talk, sidestepping, and confusion. These propellants have nothing in common with true blackpowder at all chemically; no sulfur is present. Nor is charcoal present. They are still carbon-burning propellants, though, of the deflagrating (fast-burning) type. They are measured volumetrically, but only Goex Clear Shot can be considered a black powder performance substitute. Triple Seven and Black Mag3 are far hotter (or more energetic) than good old blackpowder, and produce higher velocities and pressures than blackpowder can. Still burning carbon, the carbon-based fuel burned here is from the sugar family-not from wood (charcoal). These propellants are actually far more modern than nitrocellulose based powders. In the case of Triple Seven and Black Mag3, they have only become available within the last couple of years.

Referring to Triple Seven and Black Mag3, the only thing that they have in common with blackpowder is they can be volumetrically measured with old blackpowder powder measures. They are not as corrosive as blackpowder (Black Mag3 claims to be non-corrosive), have little in common chemically, and produce more pressure, heat, and velocity than black powder. They are considered smokeless powder by the DOT, and should be used with caution in older muzzleloaders-- as there is no way that 100 grains volumetric charge of Triple Seven or Black Mag3 can be considered "the same" as traditional blackpowder. They are still relatively inefficient propellants, leaving behind close to 50% of their mass as non-combusted, solid residue. Referring to Triple Seven, that 50% unburned material is substantially less fouling than blackpowder for the simple reason that a 100 grain volumetric charge of Triple Seven, though it produces more energy than blackpowder, is far less by actual weight. More directly stated, you still have about 50% of the garbage left, but you start with less garbage to burn in the beginning.

[delmar]

This is a copy of another thread in this forum but because everyone is focused on traditional BP you are missing modern chemistry. So:

quote>
Actually, for BPCR I make non-corrosive BP substitute using either vitamin C (ascorbic acid powder) or powdered confectioners sugar and potasium nitrate. You don't really need sulfur if you use a hot primer. This substitute will not reliably fire in a flintlock because there it needs the sulfur as 'tinder' to initiate the reaction. Everything in my ball mill including myself is grounded while running to drain off any static charge that might set off an accident. It runs in its own little 'outhouse' by itself in the middle of a field. I only make 1 lb at a time. Then I store it in old BP cans, never more than 2 or 3 lbs in possession at a time. Never enough to disturb any LEOs, fur shur.

Note: Ascorbic acid 'white powder' is more powerful than regular BP and charges must be reduced 20% and worked up.
quote>

That's what I'm talking about! +1

The white powder recipe I have been looking at just uses granulated sugar and K nitrite. Cook it on the stove top until it is the constancy of fudge. Then run it through a cheese grater and let it finish drying on a cookie sheet.
I think I would use a crock pot outside.

I had wondered whether powdered sugar in a ball mill would do the trick, but you are the first person to mention it.

[rhead]

A double boiler would avoid the chance of a hot spot.

[delmar]

A double boiler would avoid the chance of a hot spot.

I think the crock pot, set on low would as well.

[Old Time Hunter]

My Grandfather always had three compost pits going, rotating yearly. Remember pouring cow urine and other animal waste(including our own) and covering with straw. He'd come back in a year or so then dig the gunk out, crush it, and then dry it. Sift the potion over a wheel barrel, he'd taste it with a finger. If it was ready, he'd scoop out a few coffee cans worth and grind it fine. What was not deemed "good enough" went into the garden. Charcoal and sulfer were always available. Never knew it was illegal as Gramps was the county sherriff.....

[delmar]

My Grandfather always had three compost pits going, rotating yearly. Remember pouring cow urine and other animal waste(including our own) and covering with straw. He'd come back in a year or so then dig the gunk out, crush it, and then dry it. Sift the potion over a wheel barrel, he'd taste it with a finger. If it was ready, he'd scoop out a few coffee cans worth and grind it fine. What was not deemed "good enough" went into the garden. Charcoal and sulfer were always available. Never knew it was illegal as Gramps was the county sherriff.....

Pretty sure it's not. People get worked up pretty easy.

[rhead]

I think the crock pot, set on low would as well.

It SHOULD. There could be a thin spot or a mico crack in the ceramic. Why take an avoidable risk? Just how much trust do you put in the unknown person who made the crockpot? The outcome of someone else's mistake could get messy. You could heat it with a blow torch also but you could only do it once. You can probably do it a thousand times in a crock pot (That means that one time in a thousand it will say boom the first time) or ten thousand with a double boiler. If you are willing to take the chances have at it. Knowing how is probably a good thing to know but making a habit of doing it just for the rush is just a loud way to clean up the gene pool.
Am I paranoid? Heck no I think they take too many chances. Find every way to cut the odds even more.

[delmar]

It SHOULD. There could be a thin spot or a mico crack in the ceramic. Why take an avoidable risk? Just how much trust do you put in the unknown person who made the crockpot? The outcome of someone else's mistake could get messy. You could heat it with a blow torch also but you could only do it once. You can probably do it a thousand times in a crock pot (That means that one time in a thousand it will say boom the first time) or ten thousand with a double boiler. If you are willing to take the chances have at it. Knowing how is probably a good thing to know but making a habit of doing it just for the rush is just a loud way to clean up the gene pool.
Am I paranoid? Heck no I think they take too many chances. Find every way to cut the odds even more.

That is why I was saying do it outside. Like on the driveway away from the house, and like yotatrd4x4 said, if it ain't compressed all your going to get is a flash and a cloud of smoke. Besides, I have never burnt food with my crock pot. Why would I burn the powder?

[delmar]

This is a copy of another thread in this forum but because everyone is focused on traditional BP you are missing modern chemistry. So:

quote>
Actually, for BPCR I make non-corrosive BP substitute using either vitamin C (ascorbic acid powder) or powdered confectioners sugar and potasium nitrate. You don't really need sulfur if you use a hot primer. This substitute will not reliably fire in a flintlock because there it needs the sulfur as 'tinder' to initiate the reaction. Everything in my ball mill including myself is grounded while running to drain off any static charge that might set off an accident. It runs in its own little 'outhouse' by itself in the middle of a field. I only make 1 lb at a time. Then I store it in old BP cans, never more than 2 or 3 lbs in possession at a time. Never enough to disturb any LEOs, fur shur.

Note: Ascorbic acid 'white powder' is more powerful than regular BP and charges must be reduced 20% and worked up.
quote>

I stirred together a teaspoon of powdered sugar and a teaspoon of K Nitrate and lit it tonight. Man did that release a lot of energy! I think it would almost work just like that but I am thinking of adding just enough hot water to make a clay out of it. then pressing it and grating it through a cheese grater and let it dry.

[Old Ironsights]

like yotatrd4x4 said, if it ain't compressed all your going to get is a flash and a cloud of smoke...

Did that this evening with about 1/2lb of random pull-down & scrap Sub. (I collect it all year)

Put it all in a thin baggie and took it out to where the kids were shooting off fireworks.

Put the baggie in a cardboard box, top open, and set it about 6" from a small fountain.

Nice FOOMP! when an embers made it through the baggie... but nothing particularly dangerous.

[windrider919]

Re: BP Substitute

I sent this message to another member who was curious. I was going to leave it there but the above posts made me think that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and that more knowledge is needed here.

Heating a mixture of KNO3 and standard sugar is known in the amateur rocketry field as 'candy fuel' It is made like fudge where you melt the sugar in a pot but here you DO NOT want it to caramelize. It should be noted that KNO3s melting point is much higher than sugars. The sugar / sucrose will melt but the potassium nitrate will stay solid. So what you want is finely powdered KNO3 to make as much contact with the sucrose molecules as possible. Since the mix is 65:35 there is a lot more KNO3 than sugar and the mix will be extremely thick due to the unmelted KNO3. When poured into a rocket motor mould we usually pull a vacuum on it to cause all the air bubbles to foam to the top. Because the surface area determines the burning rate you would never want just powder to be used, too much burning area would cause a catastrophic pressure rise. In a rocket motor any bubbles increase the burning surface area and could cause a pressure spike that could rupture the motor. Most rocket motors operate between 1000Psi and 1400Psi, much different than the levels in handguns and rifles. So the mix for firearms CAN contain bubbles. But the size of the powder grains does still control the burning rate so they should be consistantly sized, whatever size they are.

Honestly, I will guide you a little but you need to research yourself to gain the best, firmly engrained knowledge of BP mfg. I do make it myself but if you try it yourself and have an accident I will not be responsible for your actions. Damn lawyers pollute everything in life today.

The below IS NOT CANDY FUEL as it is not melted.
The basics I will cover but there are details I am leaving out that I think you need to research for yourself. The reason BP is moistened, not wetted is to let the KNO3 saturate the carbon to get full burn. the sulfur acts like tender to start the reaction but is not necessary if the ignition is hot enough. The water just 'glues' it together so powder grains can be made and the ingredients not seperate. Research 'Corned powder' like the Spanish used and the problems it caused on ships by seperating. With white powder you have already made it a homogeneous mix in the ball mill so all you are trying to do is bind the molecules together so you can make grains to control burning rate. Think grain elevators and dust explosions here. small particles have more surface area to burn and hence burn faster. BP works similar. As to screen size, I took some mixed 4Fg, 3Fg n 2Fg to an industrial screen mfg here in Houston who weave screen with the material and size wire and opening the customer desires. I just asked if they would pour the substance I had through screens until they found the ones that sorted the 3 sizes out. No I did not tell them what the 3 oz of stuff was. I ended up with two pieces of screen that I mounted in frames. I actually never asked what the screen size was! I only use the 3fg and recycle the other sizes. Yes I worried about static in my ball mill because it was plastic. So when I attached the PVC mixing blades inside the 'drum' I used marine copper fasteners. Around the outside I ran a copper strip which the faseners went through and I have a spring mounted carbon motor brush (to ground) that keeps contact with the strip [beside the bolt heads, not over them] as the drum turns and drains off all the static. I useed to use 45 cal lead balls in the mill but now i use non-sparking ceramic balls. I should mention here that I started with a 5 gal bucket n lid but re-manufactured with 8"dia. X 12"L PVC pipe, and end cap and a threaded clean out later as the bucket was just too big. I used the design from a site called 'United Nuclear" or something like that with two shafts supporting the drum, one being driven by a belt to the motor. I made my own 14" v-belt pulley on the driven shaft to slow it down (3 circles of wood w/ the middle one smaller) with a metal split block to clamp it to the shaft. I used 1/2 inch sch 80 black pipe and lightly cut the OD down on the ends to fit the bearing I bought at the auto store. Use the bearing book or search the bearing mfg online for what size you will want. The whole frame of my ball mill is wood, routed out for bearing housings as necessary. Don't think so much about duplicating mine, search all the different ones and build what you can with what you have. Usually the drum will determine how it is turned and how. For ex; I made a small 4" X 6"L ball mill with a square shaft out the center back wall (a 1/2" carrage bolt w/ the end ground into a 3/8 square) of the drum which is turned by a BBQ pit rotisserie motor and runs on four casters from an old office chair. Mounted on a 2 X 6 X 16"
One of the commercial or kids rock polishers would work but I don't have the money for that.

Research your own details on proportions as what I said earlier is just general. I should say that Vit C tablets are full of fiber filler and binders that you don't want. You have to dissolve them and strain out the filler then dry. Its easier to buy bulk C on evilBay. And you might think to not use confectioners sugar because it has a small amount of starch in it, in reality, its just more fuel for the oxidizer KNO3. Also, some of the artificial sugar substitutes work BETTER than sucrose as the fuel in white powder. Or West Sys marine boat building epoxy mixed with KNO3 and ground up is very explosive! Or one type of GE silicone mixed with KNO3 and cured is a stable high energy fuel. Butyl rubber cauk is the fuel in the shuttle solid rocket engines, different oxidizer than KNO3 though.
************************************************** *************
Most important note: the reason more people don't make white powder with sugar is that it is extremely hygroscopic. It will pull moisture out of the air and get soft like candy does. the commercial BP substitute manufacturers add desiccants and sealers to theirs but that is beyond me and probably you. So when you make it you have to put in desiccant pouches into the sealed container to store it and then shoot what you open. The Vit C is not as hygroscopic but still needs to be dessicated in mfg. This property also makes it hard to dry. I spread it in 1/16" layer on wax paper on a cookie sheet and put in a dehumidifier cabinet I built. Then run it through an old washing machine wringer to pulverize it when dry.

Making BP or white powder is actually a LOT of work, if I had even a few extra dollars I would not do it because I am lazy. I just will not give up my most favorite hobby though.

Note above that cooking KNO3-Sucrose mixtures is useless unless the temp is high enough to melt sugar. And that is WAY above boiling [212F] so double boilers will not work. And I to would be leary of using a gas stove or any heat source with flame (more than leary, I just would not!). I use an electric element when making rocket candy but it heats through a conductor plate to minimize hot spots which can and have set peoples batches off before. It does not explode but it produces the most amazing column of beautiful pink fire 10 or 12 feet into the air. Just imagine what it would be like in your kitchen when a foot wide column of flame roars up out of a pot against the ceiling and splashes out five or six feet to the sides! Just like progressive smokeless powder it has to be contained and the pressure rising to make it react faster. Otherwise it just burns energetically at one atmosphere. In a rocket we control the pressure by carefully calculating Kn which is the ratio of expected burning surface area to the size of the venturi nozzle hole. Hence, in absence of common sense, melting it in a pressure cooker would be terminally insane because you will be dead.

Also note that this homemade candy white powder would suck moisture into the case if left loaded for a long time and become a wet goo which will not be set off by a primer. The Vit C will make a powder that lasts much longer In general you don't store it homemade, you make it and use it.

Finally, I am forced to add this disclaimer because of the vultures among us who pose as human lawyers. All this information is available in public librarys and on the net. You should realize that my brief description is not comprehensive and you are solely liable with what you do with it. You must be detail oriented and dedicated to your sport and want to do as much yourself as possible to proceed with making white powder.. Just like the civil war reenactors of today who make as much of their gear as possible. Its dangerous in the hands of idiots and if you are one and misuse knowledge like this its not my fault you blow yourself up. In that case it would be "Evolution in Action" and no one elses fault. Of course if you do it before you breed and reproduce the world gene pool would be better off.

Hmmmmm.....

That makes this an exotic intelligence and survival test.........

A new TV reality show could be based on this...........

[Old Ironsights]

Somewhere in the archives I give Breass Mesh size for 3F Hold. IIRC it's "40 Mesh"

[delmar]

So I cooked up some white powder today from a recipe in Homemade Guns and Homemade ammo. http://fliiby.com/file/34127/3qv4b6zoo3.html It's the salt peter and sugar recipe. (I'm not recommending that anyone else try it nor am I the creator of this recipe)

The KNO3 and sugar did dissolve easily at a point that was below the boiling point. I cooked it down till it was the consistency of thin apple sauce, then turned off the heat. I threw it on a plate to finish drying. I looks a lot like a mess of grits on the plate and was about that thick by the time I got the pan scraped out.

Then I took a little glob of the wet mixture and tried to see if L could light it. You can see by the attached video that this stuff is not real easy to ignite until it dries

http://radar.net/people/DelStacy24/p...from=/my-radar

[windrider919]

delmar - you added water which does dissolve both the sugar and Kno3 but there is a small problem with that procedure. The dissolved components form crystals as the water solvent is reduced by boiling, the two do not join with each other but instead re-separate and form their own crystals. These crystals are LARGER than what you get out of a ball mill so although they will 'burn' the reaction is not as quick n energetic. The other problem is that the sucrose / sugar which was in solution and then recrystallized never melted unless you got it to min 310F / 338F degrees which is the melting point for sugar. [Actually 370F but there are some other things going on here] Ask any one who makes fudge, it takes higher than boiling to melt sugar. Real melted sucrose coats each micro / balled grain of KNO3 and gives a full reaction right out of the pot, no drying necessary.

IF the mixture turns light brown the sugar is being heated too long and is starting to caramelize. Caramelized sugar will not react with KNO3 as it is a stable molecule. A little golden is ok, darker brown is wasted KNO3. Note: a drop of ethylene glycol, NOT propylene glycol antifreeze will help the melting

Sugar works but Vit C is more powerful and not hydroscopic, try it instead. It doesn' have to be cooked with all the other problems

[delmar]

I ran it through the cheese grater. Just about ready for end stage drying. I'm thinking it should be ready to test tomorrow night.




and a short video
http://radar.net/people/DelStacy24/p...from=/my-radar

[delmar]

I think it's pretty much finished, but I'm not sure how to know if it's dry enough.

[delmar]

delmar - you added water which does dissolve both the sugar and Kno3 but there is a small problem with that procedure. The dissolved components form crystals as the water solvent is reduced by boiling, the two do not join with each other but instead re-separate and form their own crystals. These crystals are LARGER than what you get out of a ball mill so although they will 'burn' the reaction is not as quick n energetic. The other problem is that the sucrose / sugar which was in solution and then recrystallized never melted unless you got it to min 310F / 338F degrees which is the melting point for sugar. [Actually 370F but there are some other things going on here] Ask any one who makes fudge, it takes higher than boiling to melt sugar. Real melted sucrose coats each micro / balled grain of KNO3 and gives a full reaction right out of the pot, no drying necessary.

IF the mixture turns light brown the sugar is being heated too long and is starting to caramelize. Caramelized sugar will not react with KNO3 as it is a stable molecule. A little golden is ok, darker brown is wasted KNO3.

It is white and I followed the recipe as written. If it doesn't preform well I can still run it through a ball mill, I suppose.

Note: a drop of ethylene glycol, NOT propylene glycol antifreeze will help the melting

Sugar works but Vit C is more powerful and not hydroscopic, try it instead. It doesn' have to be cooked with all the other problems

the problem is that Vit C, from what I can find costs more than the end of season sale price, of the black powder I am trying to replace.

[delmar]

OK, I got home from work and loaded the sucker up and did a test fire. It is time for me to admit that this powder is not working for me in it's current form. I put on the percussion cap and fired. The powder did not ignite. Put on another cap and fired, still nothing. I did the trick where you put a grain or so of BP behind the nipple, and it boomed like a mutha!

Test two
I took a pestle and ground up enough for one load into a finer powder. The results were exactly the same. Two percussion caps fired... nothing. add a little BP behind the nipple. Works like a charm! It seems like the powder has enough energy to do the trick, but it is to hard to ignite! I guess the ball mill is the next stop.

[delmar]

Turns out it is not quite dry, is the problem. Or at least one of the problems. The last time I loaded the gun I tamped the ramrod down extra hard and I saw a little moisture coming out!

[missionary5155]

Good evening
Having read all this I have to say Yes it MAY/ COULD be dangerous...
But it sure is good that over the years individuals have been willing to do the uncommon & take calculated risks... Like the MOON, Underwater exploration, Cross the praries, make a stand at the Alamo, Decide Bastonge would not fall, Hold Wake Island for an impossible 3 weeks.... Leave Europe in leaking ships to found a NEW country with FREEDOM to make Black Powder.