45-70 Seating Problem

[Frank]

When I seat a bullet, the case is acting like an accordian at the last second and bulging at the base. This obviously is shortening the case length which will be detrimental to getting a consistent crimp. Is there a solution to getting a bullet seated without this happening? Or is it something that I have to put up with when working with the 45-70?

[stubshaft]

Have you checked the overall case length of the case to insure that it is not too long?

[Johnch]

I had a problem like that a while back

From memory I fixed it by seating and crimping separately

I think the seater was still pushing the bullet in while trying to crimp

John

[Frank]

My fault. I meant it was bulging at the bullet base, not the base of the case. Cases are all trimmed to length. It looks like a snake ate Oprah. But this time Oprah looks like she had too many jelly beans. I then measured the case length, and it shortened in proportion to the increase in case bulge.

[IcerUSA]

Are you FL sizing the brass ? What diameter is the boolit ? What is the inside of the case after sizing ?

Just a couple things to think about .

Keith

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Had a reloading friend with a similar problem with 45acp (maybe 45colt). He had not expanded the cases enough and the mouths were still a little sharp from trimming. When he went to seat the bullet the mouth of the case chewed up the base of the bullet, causing the problem which you have described. Try pulling apart a few of your loads and look at the bases of the bullets. If that is not your problem Johnch had an excellent suggestion about seating and crimping separately. Hope that helps.

[JesterGrin_1]

I think I understand lol. As I get a small buldge at the bottom part of where the bullet is located. This will depend on the size of your BOOLIT. If it is cast or even jacketed. Measure the bullet and measure the mouth of the brass? You may need a larger internal sizer depending on the bullet you wish to seat into the brass. Another way is to not fully size the brass. Back off the sizer 4 to 5 turns and then size and then seat the bullet and I think you will find that this will help a bunch. This will only work with fired unsized brass. As well new brass or already fully sized brass is already small.

So I would say keep the brass seperated for what gun you will use them for. And fire form them which means shoot them in the rifle and then as said above back off the full length resizer 4 to 5 turns you have to be the judge on this and then seat the BOOLIT and crimp. By doing this the brass should function fine in the same rifle they were shot from.

[Frank]

Stay tuned if you can. Pics will be here shortly.

[Frank]

Here you go. And also, the bulge is only on one side. I made up 3 other dummies and they do the same. Bullet is a 425 grn grn measured .459".

[JesterGrin_1]

Yep I knew what you were talking about. The bullet is simply that much larger than your sized case. And as in all things the strength of the case will not be the same on all sides and thus may buldge one side more than the other or simply by how it is seated into the case. But either case if you use a fired unsized case and back off your full length size I would say now 5 turns. Size the case and seat the boolit and see what you get.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Yeah, now looking at the pics I would agree with JesterGrin 1 on the cause of the problem. But I am not sure if neck sizing the brass would fix the problem. Try a bullet with small diameter.

[44man]

A bulge on one side is a problem. Something is out of line. No problem if it is even all around.
What press are you using Frank? What dies?
Try leaving the seater die loose in the press once so it self centers. Seat boolits very slowly too. Crimp later after all are seated.
The nose punch might be holding the boolit off center too.

[Frank]

JesterGrin wrote:

Yep I knew what you were talking about. The bullet is simply that much larger than your sized case. And as in all things the strength of the case will not be the same on all sides and thus may buldge one side more than the other or simply by how it is seated into the case. But either case if you use a fired unsized case and back off your full length size I would say now 5 turns. Size the case and seat the boolit and see what you get.

OK, I opened a F/L case up with an expander screwed all the way down. I ran it thru a F/L die like Jestergrin said. Here is the round before (right) and after (left).



Measurement wise, it still bulged, but due to the "fired" case the bulge is camoflaged, or the brass is thicker at that point. The O.D. measures .485" at bullet base while it measures .480" near the mouth.

So I am learning about 45-70. I don't know what I'll do next. Maybe I'll cut the brass and measure the thickness and then I can see what is contributing to the bulge.

44man, the press is a Forster Co-Axial, dies are RCBS F/L, expander and seater, belled with Lee .45 Colt. The dies are free floating always. It's possible that the shell might be misaligned at the bottom, now that you mention it. The Co-Axial press doesn't like 45-70 cases, they barely fit, there's not much "room" to move them around in the little shell plate. Another thing to check. I can just put everything on the rockchucker.

[JesterGrin_1]

Okay here is the skinny lol. You can leave your sizer and bullet seater die as it is. And you wish to have the inside sizer die go in just far enough to barely put a flair on the case mouth so that you can set the boolit into the top of the case so you do not cut the side of the bullet when seating it. I use GC Boolits for my 45-70 sized .460. I set it so the mouth of the case is just wide enough to accept about 1/2 the thickness of the GC into the case so it gives it a good start and I do not overwork the case mouth.


Now onto the full length reziser. As I said I would back it off from full length five turns maybe a tad more lets say 5 1/2 turns. Since you can go down but you can not go up in size unless you fire the brass lol. And then at 5 1/2 turns seat the bullet and see how the boolit feels going into the brass as there should be some resistance. And check for the buldge. If there is no buldge you can still use the same case since it is oversize. Just use a bullet puller of some kind and remove the boolit and then size a bit more of the case till you find where it likes and the boolit does not buldge the case much if at all. But you will also have to make sure the rounds will chamber in the rifle that you intend to use them in as well.

I also use RCBS Dies for my 45-70 If you like send me a pm on the subject.

[JesterGrin_1]

A bulge on one side is a problem. Something is out of line. No problem if it is even all around.
What press are you using Frank? What dies?
Try leaving the seater die loose in the press once so it self centers. Seat boolits very slowly too. Crimp later after all are seated.
The nose punch might be holding the boolit off center too.

Mine would also be buldged a bit on one side of the case. Not as much as his but then maybe his full length reziser is a bit smaller than mine. But I also thought maybe the Boolit seater die was not in center. So I took a tip from a BPCR guy that used some flat point boolits and just machined the tip of the bullet seater die flat and polished it glass smooth. So that the bullet would have some slide room on the tip to let it align with the case instead of the boolit seater making its own seater. But it would still buldge the case on one side. So I did what I am informing him of now lol.

Still working on it though even on my end. Well not working on the case but have yet to see how they shoot with the larger case size. Fun Stuff lol. Just takes time.


And maybe like my Marlin .44 Mag Thread I just put wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much information out there lol.

On a side not the same thing did happen on my RCBS Rock Chucker, RCBS JR-2 and my Lyman T-MAG II and my Lee Classic Cast Turret Press lol. And one more RCBS press the RS-2. So there we are lol. And now the top of the line press the Forster Co-Axial Press CRAZY STUFF lol

[JesterGrin_1]

Yeah, now looking at the pics I would agree with JesterGrin 1 on the cause of the problem. But I am not sure if neck sizing the brass would fix the problem. Try a bullet with small diameter.

Well let me help here if I may. You need to size the BOOLIT to the gun so you can not just use a smaller BOOLIT. So at times it takes some time to work out the best way to load a cartridge so that all things work together. The BOOLIT to the gun and the case to BOOLIT fit along with powder and primer and to make sure the complete round will function correctly in any given fire arm.

I know books make it look easy and most of the time it is but if you go outside of the norm and things change then the brain has to kick in to make things work. And then there are a bunch of good people on this forum that have been there and done that and will help the best they can.

So sit back stick around and search and ask questions as the only dumb question is the one not asked. If you look at some of my posts they seem like very dumb questions but again if you do not know ASK.

I joined this site at about the same time I started to reload looking for information. And I will have to say without a doubt that I was as dumb as a box of rocks about reloading till I got to this good site.

[Rick459]

are you using the LS jaws. something is out of alingment. had the same problem using a turret press which had too much slop in the ram and caused the same results as you are getting.

[44man]

That makes me wonder about the RCBS dies. They could be sizing way too much. The seater is not an inline either, there is no support to the case as the boolit starts and you have to depend on the nose punch. Most do not even screw in straight.
The suggestion to back off the size die is a good one.
I have no problems with my Hornady dies.
I just sized a case, it measures .467" at the mouth and about where the base of a 400 gr boolits goes it is .485".
After expanding, the mouth is .476" and at a boolit base it is still .485".
After seating the mouth is .480" but my boolit is too short for a good measurement for a 400 gr boolit.
I can just barely see the base of a boolit but a longer one would show more, I don't have a 400 or 405 gr one to try.
I gave up RCBS dies long ago because dimensions never matched what I want and over sizing can be very real with them. Then they over expand most straight wall brass. I hate the boolit seater too.
The only dies I would buy now are Hornady and Redding.
RCBS does not offer a competition die set for the 45-70 and the Redding seat die is $68. That leaves only Hornady with a decent seat die at $39 for the whole die set. Those are Midway prices, Midsouth is $1 cheaper but so is shipping.
Forster does not have a Bonanza die set for the 45-70 either.
Hornady is as close as you can get to a competition set for the 45-70.
I have long said dies can make or break your shooting.
Many do not like Hornady but they have made the most accurate revolver loads for me, bar none, including for the 45-70 BFR.
One good thing about RCBS! The die bodies have been used to make many tools for me like a BP compression die, gas check seater, etc. I wish I had a few more laying around.
Sometimes you need to bite the boolit! And toss a die set in the junk box. Never throw them out, they are useful for something.

[45r]

I use lyman dies and don't have any problems with there FL die using a redding 64 thou spacer under it.I take it out to FL size.I had to polish the rough finish inside the lyman FL die quite a bit first.There M die is a most have for cast boolits to me.It holds the boolit straight up with a good bell also.I used permatex liguid metal filler in the round nose stem to make a perfect nose fit for my 300 and 405 rcbs boolits.Put some on and let harden up and run a loaded case with strait run out into it to make form fitted nose.Trim off the filler that flows out the side with a exacto knife.I'd like to get a redding competition seating die some day.

[Frank]

are you using the LS jaws. something is out of alingment. had the same problem using a turret press which had too much slop in the ram and caused the same results as you are getting.

Yes. And they work lousy. You have to open the jaws with your finger. If you let the "bolt" open them up sufficiently, it gets damaged. Their primer catcher is a dog with flees. Primers don't fall thru. But I like changing dies with it, snap in, snap out.

RCBS dies sizes too much - revelation. That's why I measure what I am doing, and I must say, I am AMAZED that 44man's sizer leaves .485" at the base. For me to do that with the RCBS I have to back out 5 turns thanks to Jestergrin. I can have the same expansion as 44man, he gets .476", I now have .475". So I have a tighter neck than 44man. With the RCBS I can screw it in deeper and get .476". There is adjustment. I like adjustment.

I have a box of Bear Creek 400 grn that have a bulge at the base. All I used was the Lyman neck die with "S" jaws. So where does it leave a newbie?

Measure everything you do. Don't trust XYZ company dies. They all fail, intentionally or unintentionally.

I was kind of hoping to hear from the "Quigley Down Under" types on this issue. But maybe 45R represented that with his "M" die. So what does a sized case measure with an M die?