Lubes, velocity and accuracy

[joeb33050]

Joe I am stupid and unable to read the written word. Can you please explain to me how type of lube is incon ..inconseq...makes no difference but amount of lube can.. TAlk slowly and use small words please.

I'll do what I can, but no promises! You clearly didn't read what you quoted.
1. I have no data showing that different REASONABLE lubes vary accuracy, and I've certainly asked.
2. Lyman Alox (it said on the label) was a different color, different composition??, and failed me. I spoke to folks at Lyman after sending 2 sticks back. Somehow the Lyman Alox changed and became UNREASONABLE = the accuracy didn't differ slightly, it went very bad.
3. I don't know if the amount of lube affects accuracy. Less lube worked for me a few times, but I don't have enough data to know if this happens often or frequently. (Some would suggest that less lube is "better" than more lube, BUT, I must size 314299s first, then re-set the 450 and run them through again to lube. A PITA, it's easier to run them through once and lube all the grooves.)
4. I don't know "how" or "why" CB things work. There are enough theorists here who will expound in great detail about the how and why.
Did you get it?
joe b.

[joeb33050]

Glad to see you are getting your own "data" there Joe.

Lube type and amount DO make a difference in my 35s. I also believe that the constant CLEANING of ones barrel will detract from the accuracy once one has a good load/lube developed. Unfortunately, I don't have data to prove it to anyone else...but I've proven it to myself so that's good enough for me. A 2" group isn't good enough for most of my guns
I'm still working to getting under 2" reliably for averages of 5 5-shot 100 yard groups with a Savage Striker and a Competitor. I'd like to know how you get under 2" pistol 100 yard groups, what rest, what scope, etc. CBs of course.
Thanks;
joe b.





since I do have data that proves they will do better with J-words. I am of the opinion that one can achieve accuracy as good as, or nearly as good as j-words if one has the right lube/boolit/load combination. Several on the forum have proved it to be so.

Edd

joe b.

[BABore]

Lyman Alox worked fine for many years, then didnj't. Maven sold me some Lyman Super Moly, which worked far better than the defective Alox, shooting 5-shot 100 yard group averages of 2"-2 1/2" or so in my Savage Striker pistol. This with both grooves lubed on 314299. The barrel has a LOT of lube, black, in it. Wednesday with only the bottom groove lubed, and the nose wiped off= no lube, 17/IMR4227 averaged 2.121" for 6 groups, and 18/IMR4227 averaged 1.879" for 6 groups.
I shot 75 shots, never cleaned, the last 5 = .975".
Pat I. said several times, and I have tried, lube in ONLY the groove just above the gas check. It worked for me, but made me very nervous. Chicken.
I think that less lube shoots better and reduces cleaning required, but more data is needed.
I don't know that cleaning all the black moly lube out of the barrel is necessary, it takes a lot of brushing and patches, and seems to screw up accuracy for the first ?10? shots.
joe b.

And there lies most of the problem when you simply dismiss that the type of lube doesn't make a difference. Most, like you, simply shoot a few boolits downrange, with a new lube from a clean gun. Boy! Twelve, 5-shot groups sure seems like a complete test don't it? Now the last group went sub inch. Shazam! Didn't that tell you something, or did you go clean the barrel?

Depending on the gun, barrel, boolit, and load, it may take that many rounds to get the bbl conditioned. Then you can start load developement to find what shoots best. Do you really think that just cause a previous load/lube was kinda accurate that you can change the lube and leave the load alone. Not! Change one variable and you get to start over. Your pet load may, or may not work.

I've shot 357Max's lube's for years. They started out as a Purple Voodoo lube. It worked great in most all magnum pistol and rifle loads from 1,600 to 2,200 fps, for me. I had used Alox, LBT, Beartooth, Caranuba Red, Felix, and several other homemade lubes prior. PV lube was simply better and the targets showed it. About every 6-9 months, 357Max would get a wild hair and change his recipe slightly. Always trying to improve it. On each new batch, I had to make minor tweaks to the load. I would shoot 50-100 rounds with the new lube and old data to get things settled in, then I would rework the load to see if anything was left on the table. Several times there was. In most every case, the latest lube and tweaked load showed an improvement over the previous one. I'm now starting work with Max's latest lube edition. It's totally different than the previous ones and according to him, much better. I will be months evaluating it, not a few shooting sessions. That's how you got to do it.

Oh! And cleaning your barrel?? I've been shooting a new boolit design in my old Remington 700 ADL, 30'06, with LBT lube, for at least 300 rounds. It has a stock tube that has 3,000+ rounds through it and it likes to walk a bit when hot. 3-shot groups average just below an inch. 5-shot groups run around 1 3/8 to 1 1/2". I've never chronographed the load with this 155 grain boolit driven by 37 grains of Reloader 7, but the book says around 2,400 fps. Haven't clean it once.

[joeb33050]

Now that is a set-up if I ever saw one...........
One thing you have to remember when testing individual items involved with the load, and that is: "You have to be a good enough shot to tell the difference when you see it". Those who shoot +1 MOA groups will probably not see the difference with most component changes.
A 10% difference in average 5-shot group size, with 2 different loads, requires 23 groups be shot with each load to be 90% sure that there's a difference. To be 95% sure, 38 groups with each load must be shot.
So from 1.1" to 1", or 2.2" to 2", or from .55" to .5", we must shoot a lot of groups to know, at some % surety, that there's a difference.
Wednesday I shot 6 groups, 2 loads, a 12% difference in group size. To be 90% sure, I'd have to shoot a total of 16 groups with each load.
This is why data and opinion differ.

357 Max has formulated several lubes which do very well in high velocity/pressure situations and has the ability to see the differences. In dealing with target velocities mentioned, you might pay attention to what Felix has said about lube viscosity, i.e. use as low of viscosity lube as you can for the situation. Accuracy will improve when you do.

joe b.

[joeb33050]

And there lies most of the problem when you simply dismiss that the type of lube doesn't make a difference. Most, like you, simply shoot a few boolits downrange, with a new lube from a clean gun. Boy! Twelve, 5-shot groups sure seems like a complete test don't it? Now the last group went sub inch. Shazam! Didn't that tell you something, or did you go clean the barrel?

Depending on the gun, barrel, boolit, and load, it may take that many rounds to get the bbl conditioned. Then you can start load developement to find what shoots best. Do you really think that just cause a previous load/lube was kinda accurate that you can change the lube and leave the load alone. Not! Change one variable and you get to start over. Your pet load may, or may not work.

I've shot 357Max's lube's for years. They started out as a Purple Voodoo lube. It worked great in most all magnum pistol and rifle loads from 1,600 to 2,200 fps, for me. I had used Alox, LBT, Beartooth, Caranuba Red, Felix, and several other homemade lubes prior. PV lube was simply better and the targets showed it. About every 6-9 months, 357Max would get a wild hair and change his recipe slightly. Always trying to improve it. On each new batch, I had to make minor tweaks to the load. I would shoot 50-100 rounds with the new lube and old data to get things settled in, then I would rework the load to see if anything was left on the table. Several times there was. In most every case, the latest lube and tweaked load showed an improvement over the previous one. I'm now starting work with Max's latest lube edition. It's totally different than the previous ones and according to him, much better. I will be months evaluating it, not a few shooting sessions. That's how you got to do it.

At last, a man who knows!! Please post the data so that this question is finally answered to everyone's satisfaction.

Oh! And cleaning your barrel?? I've been shooting a new boolit design in my old Remington 700 ADL, 30'06, with LBT lube, for at least 300 rounds. It has a stock tube that has 3,000+ rounds through it and it likes to walk a bit when hot. 3-shot groups average just below an inch. 5-shot groups run around 1 3/8 to 1 1/2". I've never chronographed the load with this 155 grain boolit driven by 37 grains of Reloader 7, but the book says around 2,400 fps. Haven't clean it once.

Barrel cleaning with rfs or CBs has various absolutely sure opinions from always to never. I had a CB rifle bore corrode? on me years ago, it ain't fun. Now I clean every time, that's EVERY TIME, I shoot a gun. What I don't know, and the list is long, is HOW MUCH to clean when using Lyman Super Moly.
I'll find out.
joe b.
(Get that data posted!!!)

[BABore]

Barrel cleaning with rfs or CBs has various absolutely sure opinions from always to never. I had a CB rifle bore corrode? on me years ago, it ain't fun. Now I clean every time, that's EVERY TIME, I shoot a gun. What I don't know, and the list is long, is HOW MUCH to clean when using Lyman Super Moly.
I'll find out.
joe b.
(Get that data posted!!!)

How's about you go out and collect your own data and stick it in your spreadsheet. The technique's are well known and for the asking. Then maybe you can write a book. I've got a notebook full of data for each gun I shoot cast in. You really think the data from my guns/loads/techniques are of any practical use? It's the thought process and troubleshooting that are of value.The data for that is understading and doing, not punching numbers into a numeric keypad. I was tutored by a cranky old fart that didn't lay the answers on me "Welfare-Like". He made me do my own work, old school. I combined that ,with my own, "never-be-satisfied" attitude, and am still learning.

[Larry Gibson]

I believe Joe is making several good and valid points. I've been shooting 3 shot 1" groups at 2400 fps out of an '06 sporter (2 of them actually) for some time with Bass's LBT bullet an 311466. That is out of clean barrels without having to shoot 300 rounds to "condition" a bore BTW. I'd also say "shazam" at Joe's last .975" group. Not that it was telling him anything but that it was the smallest group of the test series. That is simply due to random impact of bullets in the group. It is the average or the largest group size that are the measure of the accuracy. I too have had a barrel ruined by not cleaning it some years back when using a new "wonder" lube. I have shot extenstively without cleaning the barrels and with most all quality commercial lubes the barrels are "conditioned" within 1 to 3 shots.

Now those are my observations based on 40+ years of shooting cast bullets extesively. One may very well get a decent group after shooting 300 rounds (30 ten shot groups, 60 five shot groups or 100 three shot groups) but then to claim "shazam" because the the 31, 61st or 101st groups is a small one.....that does not seem too "practical" to me. However, that is my opinion based on what I think is practical or not. If some here want to claim one good group out of 30, 60 or 100 groups makes a load "practical" then that is certainly their choice. I think Joe is on the right track.

Might add also that when questioned a few here (like the previous post) always get nasty and start with personal attacks when someone disagrees with their "expert" opinions. That is a shame because unless we can sort out fact from fiction, truth from old wives tales and leave out the witchcraft how do we learn and advance? Some claim to be still "learning" but yet insinuate if you don't do it their way you are wrong. Not saying that the previous posts contain any of that but Joe's experiments are pointing in truthful direction that keeps us "learning'.

Larry Gibson

[Recluse]

Agree with Larry--no need to get nasty or personal.

I'm about to take a rare afternoon off and head to the range to test some 7.62x39 boolits out of my SKS--which I bought a few days before the Klinton/Reno AWB, and which, to date, has less than forty rounds fired through it. Honest-to-goodness Chinese SKS that doesn't have the Norinco stamp/name on it. Good gun, sort of . . .

Also going to test some various cast boolits in my beloved and prized Savage 110B in 30-06. I get other-wordly accuracy in MOA with jacketed bullets. Now begins the quest to achieve the same with lead. If I can, I can. If I can't, I won't sweat it for even a minute. That gun shoots far too good and too consistent with the copper stuff to get upset over the cb stuff.

My variables? Aside from powder charges (obviously), the variables are amount of lube and type of lube. I have about 70 rounds to test fire. I even loaded up some "fouling" rounds for both guns so that none of the real rounds will have to be fired from a cold, clean barrel.

Now, I'm with Joe on the cleaning part. Maybe it's partly my dad and grandad's fault--drilled into me since I could walk: If you shoot the gun, you clean the gun.

Maybe it's the military's fault: Are you going to trust your life to a dirty gun, mister?

Who knows? What I do know is that I clean every gun after ever outing. Now, I don't strip the things down and put them in the parts waster and whatnot. But I do swab out the barrel pretty good, clean up the bolt/receiver/action/cylinders, and then apply a very light coat of Break Free in the bore and on the friction areas, then a light coat of G96--best stuff ever to come out of a spray can.

I figure that THAT routine is part of MY consistency in how I shoot and test rounds, and eliminates the variable of a dirty or fouled bore, etc. It also helps me sleep at night knowing that I'm protecting my investments. Guns ain't cheap, after all, and they're not coming down in price.

Another thing is that what may work for me, as BadgerEd referred to, may not work for you. And that applies to even jacketed bullets and factory ammo out of matching pre-64 Winchester Mod70's! That is the beauty of the Gun--she is a magnificient thing to behold and takes on a personality unique to the owner who cares for her.

[Bret4207]

And there lies most of the problem when you simply dismiss that the type of lube doesn't make a difference. Most, like you, simply shoot a few boolits downrange, with a new lube from a clean gun. Boy! Twelve, 5-shot groups sure seems like a complete test don't it? Now the last group went sub inch. Shazam! Didn't that tell you something, or did you go clean the barrel?

Depending on the gun, barrel, boolit, and load, it may take that many rounds to get the bbl conditioned. Then you can start load developement to find what shoots best. Do you really think that just cause a previous load/lube was kinda accurate that you can change the lube and leave the load alone. Not! Change one variable and you get to start over. Your pet load may, or may not work.

I've shot 357Max's lube's for years. They started out as a Purple Voodoo lube. It worked great in most all magnum pistol and rifle loads from 1,600 to 2,200 fps, for me. I had used Alox, LBT, Beartooth, Caranuba Red, Felix, and several other homemade lubes prior. PV lube was simply better and the targets showed it. About every 6-9 months, 357Max would get a wild hair and change his recipe slightly. Always trying to improve it. On each new batch, I had to make minor tweaks to the load. I would shoot 50-100 rounds with the new lube and old data to get things settled in, then I would rework the load to see if anything was left on the table. Several times there was. In most every case, the latest lube and tweaked load showed an improvement over the previous one. I'm now starting work with Max's latest lube edition. It's totally different than the previous ones and according to him, much better. I will be months evaluating it, not a few shooting sessions. That's how you got to do it.

Oh! And cleaning your barrel?? I've been shooting a new boolit design in my old Remington 700 ADL, 30'06, with LBT lube, for at least 300 rounds. It has a stock tube that has 3,000+ rounds through it and it likes to walk a bit when hot. 3-shot groups average just below an inch. 5-shot groups run around 1 3/8 to 1 1/2". I've never chronographed the load with this 155 grain boolit driven by 37 grains of Reloader 7, but the book says around 2,400 fps. Haven't clean it once.

Agree pretty much across the board. I've seen the seasoning thing. It seems more prevalent with some guns than others.

[357maximum]

Discussions like this let some people see the truth/open minds/get us thinking, andgenerally make the shooters life easier.only if they are willing to. That was the whole point of this hijacking.

If someone thinks my words were a personal attack........well

"are you stupid or can you not read the written word" were not my words....I just borrowed them.

And yes I read what I quoted, I just do not buy it...I have seen otherwise too many times....maybe the laws of physics are different here....one can never be sure I guess.

To see a member assaulted this way got under my skin a bit....I tend not to forget such things, I forgive, but never forget such a thing, especially when it was doled out to an unsuspecting member simply asking an honest question. If it had been laid upon someone playing devils advocate as I did earlier in this thread, that would have been a different deal altogether.

now back to the program

[joeb33050]

How's about you go out and collect your own data and stick it in your spreadsheet. The technique's are well known and for the asking. Then maybe you can write a book. I've got a notebook full of data for each gun I shoot cast in. You really think the data from my guns/loads/techniques are of any practical use? It's the thought process and troubleshooting that are of value.The data for that is understading and doing, not punching numbers into a numeric keypad. I was tutored by a cranky old fart that didn't lay the answers on me "Welfare-Like". He made me do my own work, old school. I combined that ,with my own, "never-be-satisfied" attitude, and am still learning.

The AF taught me to do some electronics stuff, and I worked in that area for many years. Many of the guys I worked with had rings with beavers on them. Knowledge and assistance were freely available, from and to anyone. Absolute free movement.
Later I ran into folks who had come up as machinists and tool makers and production engineers, and in that end of the world knowledge was closely held, not let go of, and assistance was about non-existant.
I saw this for 40 years, talked to people about it, it seemed to be the rule.
Free passing of knowledge is what I got used to, as in journal articles for example.
Sometimes I forget the other guys and how they worked.
Sorry.
joe b.

[357maximum]

I'll do what I can, but no promises! You clearly didn't read what you quoted.
1. I have no data showing that different REASONABLE lubes vary accuracy, and I've certainly asked.

Did you get it?
joe b.

*THE FOLLOWING IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK, AND SHOULD NOT BE SEEN THAT WAY* when/if I ever decide to make a personal attack...I will write this proceeding my words "mod hat off".

Do you have a shooting range you can use? You could likely find your data there. Quit asking others to do the work for you, and go get it, it will mean more.

Several of us told you about or experiences but you want a chart to publish.....your gonna have to do that yourself.

AND Yes...I got it...several years before this was typed in fact.

[Blammer]

interesting thread

[Bret4207]

*THE FOLLOWING IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK, AND SHOULD NOT BE SEEN THAT WAY* when/if I ever decide to make a personal attack...I will write this proceeding my words "mod hat off".

Do you have a shooting range you can use? You could likely find your data there. Quit asking others to do the work for you, and go get it, it will mean more.

Several of us told you about or experiences but you want a chart to publish.....your gonna have to do that yourself.

AND Yes...I got it...several years before this was typed in fact.

"Mod hat off", right... Obviously you're a power mad dictator type with a mean streak a mile wide. Probably a cop too!

[Larry Gibson]

357maximum and Bret4207

Come on guys, Joe does shoot and he shoots a lot. He is just trying to get some documented facts based on actual tests. Casual observations of one or two groups is not a "test" nor is remembering "experiences". Any cop who has interviewed witnesses and then reinterviewed them some time later will tell you how good rememberences of "experiences" are. Yes I was a cop and criminal investigator for several years.

I'll repost one of Joe's posts in this thread below. Looks to me like he has a range, uses it and shoots a lot. It also looks like he is trying to gather data (actual data from other sources). If you don't have any actual data then why not just say so or say nothing.

Larry Gibson

Joe's post;

Lyman Alox worked fine for many years, then didnj't. Maven sold me some Lyman Super Moly, which worked far better than the defective Alox, shooting 5-shot 100 yard group averages of 2"-2 1/2" or so in my Savage Striker pistol. This with both grooves lubed on 314299. The barrel has a LOT of lube, black, in it. Wednesday with only the bottom groove lubed, and the nose wiped off= no lube, 17/IMR4227 averaged 2.121" for 6 groups, and 18/IMR4227 averaged 1.879" for 6 groups.
I shot 75 shots, never cleaned, the last 5 = .975".
Pat I. said several times, and I have tried, lube in ONLY the groove just above the gas check. It worked for me, but made me very nervous. Chicken.
I think that less lube shoots better and reduces cleaning required, but more data is needed.
I don't know that cleaning all the black moly lube out of the barrel is necessary, it takes a lot of brushing and patches, and seems to screw up accuracy for the first ?10? shots.
joe b.

[Uncle R.]

I've seen the groups get better as a rifle is shot more - but not always.
I've long suspected that NOT cleaning might be a wise choice for some loads and some applications but I just can't bring myself to put a gun back in the safe without cleaning it - I know myself too well. Sometimes those " load development programs" get lost in the shuffle of day-to-day living and a gun that I may plan to shoot tomorrow, or next weekend, winds up sitting for months or even years.
As for amount and type of lube - there are so ding-blasted many variables in load testing, including some that a person might not even think of, that it's pretty near imposible to create a real scientific test. Humidity? Barometric pressure? Ammo temp vs. barrel temp? Length of time since the bullets were cast - or sized - or lubed? Differences in the batch of lube? Bullet alloy, exactly?
Real scientific testing requires a control group - and changing only ONE variable at a time. How do we do that in our game? Like it or not, there's always conjecture and "stands to reason" thought in the boolit game, always a lack of certainty and some amount of voodoo.
Oh well - it keeps things interesting...

Uncle R.

[runfiverun]

humidity is a big deal in the world of lubes.
i have a h/v lube i use in my rifles exclusively as it is kinda time consuming to make.
i made up a batch of boolits and sent them to N.C. when i asked how they shot ,I got the standard they shot fine and a pic of the groups.
the one caveat however was they sure smoked a lot though.
no leading ,outstanding groups. but really smoky.
W.T.H. i barely see anything if even a poof here in s.e. idaho.
temp is paid attention to,visc of lube, etc... but humidity is one of the biggest factors in this cast thing.
humidity while casting,loading and shooting.

[Bret4207]

357maximum and Bret4207

Come on guys, Joe does shoot and he shoots a lot. He is just trying to get some documented facts based on actual tests. Casual observations of one or two groups is not a "test" nor is remembering "experiences". Any cop who has interviewed witnesses and then reinterviewed them some time later will tell you how good rememberences of "experiences" are. Yes I was a cop and criminal investigator for several years.

I'll repost one of Joe's posts in this thread below. Looks to me like he has a range, uses it and shoots a lot. It also looks like he is trying to gather data (actual data from other sources). If you don't have any actual data then why not just say so or say nothing.

Larry Gibson

Joe's post;

Larry- That was a humorous reference to the dozens of time I tried that "mod hat off" idea. No one cares, once you have that Mod shingle you automatically become an overzealous dictator, or so they say....

[Larry Gibson]

Larry- That was a humorous reference to the dozens of time I tried that "mod hat off" idea. No one cares, once you have that Mod shingle you automatically become an overzealous dictator, or so they say....

Ain't that the truth!

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Every gun is different. I have discussed many times how I would miss the first shot at an IHMSA shoot when starting with a clean bore. Jacketed bullets in single shots, etc. I ALWAYS needed to shoot one shot before I took a gun to a shoot.
I recently sighted my red dot in with the .44 at 50 yards and with a clean bore, I mean CLEAN! I scrubbed it with M-Pro 7. My first five shots were in 3/4", next was also 3/4", then a 1/4" group and when I got it sighted, the last group was 3/4". I lost that target because it got soaked with all the rain we had.
But I still have the target from when I removed the red dot and put my scope on the gun. I used three shot groups with the scope and the barrel also started CLEAN.
This was my first group at 50 yards from a clean bore. As I adjusted, the next group below, right was also 3/4" as was the group in the bulls eye.
For some reason, this gun never changes and only needs cleaned when the cylinder pin gets too cruddy. Sometimes 6 months or more of shooting.
I just have not found a problem with testing lubes in my revolvers. Without cleaning between a lube change, a group change is immediate and sustainable. Going right back to the better lube will shrink the group right away and is also sustainable.
As a result, I do not put any stock in bore "seasoning", at least with a revolver.
However, if I test LLA, my bore DOES get "seasoned"---with LEAD!
I can not speak for rifles.
Anyway, this is one gun I am not afraid to go deer hunting with a clean bore.