35 Whelen Twist rate dilemma?

[BrushBuster]

Have wanted to own a Whelen for quite awhile, and it would seem to be the perfect moose hunting calibre. I'm converting my 30-06 Enfield, and before making a barrel change I would like to identify the best twist rate for using a combination of jacketed and cast.

On the advice of others with more experience, I have rejected the 1:16 twist available in all current commercial chambering because of failure to stabilize the heavier bullets. Now, the choice seems to be narrowed down between 1:14 and 1:12.

I will be shooting primarily cast boolits in the 250-275 grain range and would also be concerned about too fast a twist that might compromise accuracy and higher velocity with ACWW or WCWW boolits. Could I have some discussion on this.

BrushBuster

[felix]

14 twist. No discussion warranted because that twist is proven. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

The twist rate thing is a bit over blown. What do I mean by bit? Try total loss of perspective!!! It really depends on barrel length cause the real answer is sufficient velocity and bullet design.

A hardened 250 grain cast bullet in 35 caliber will penetrate 3 moose if launched properly at a high enough velocity. Lets see, do we need 1/2 MOA accuracy for moose? A bit much. How about MOA? Again a bit much.

My point is that the old standards requiring heavy bullets was established with pure lead inners and a full length GC. Today, a modern bullet of solid copper will pentrate much more at significantly less weight. How do I know? Well if you can penetrate a moose with a 30 caliber and 180 grains of weight, why do you need 300 when you get up the slug diameter to 35 caliber? Answer is that either 30 calibers and below need to be banned or you don't. That's a BIG point!!!

If you haven't stopped reading so far, then at least your mind is still open. So if jacketed are no longer a concern for anything on this continent, then it only comes down to how heavy do you need for cast. IF you want to shoot the 358009 exclusively, then you need the faster twist unless you run it wide open. It can be done and stabilize. If you want to shoot a 280 grain bullet of a conventional design, which will be shorter than the 358009, you can do this with a 16 twist if you push it. Will it stabilize with 20 grains of 4759 a 1800 FPS? Nope. Are you going to shoot 280 grains for plinking? Waste of components if you ask me.

I had a 14 twist and just built two, 16 twists for me and my wife. These are 24" tubes. If you want a 20" build a 14 twist. If you want an 18" barrel, then build a 12. I don't have this concern because I do my plinking with smaller calibers and as the old timers said, use the longest barrels for lead.

[felix]

Exactly! ... felix

[sundog]

Fourteen works just nicely with 3589. Very nicely....

Felix, came into some REAL 35 Whelen brass today. New. How is it that a feller can be so fortunate? MY bet is that it won't shoot any better than the LCNM '06 that got necked up --- but it's stamped with the right loading!

[felix]

It's the ol' sayin', if it looks good, it is good! Never mind if it doesn't shoot as well as the o' necked up trash. Interesting, though, would be to check loaded rounds on the neck and see which has the thinner brass there. Anyway, that's a rare find, Corky. ... felix

[Blammer]

I just got a 14T whelen barrel put on my Marlin XL-7.

I'm shooting 280gr 358009 at 1930fps. It's putting good holes in paper out to 100 yds so far.

I too had the same debate as you on what twist to get, I opted for 14T.

I just finished shooting 180gr GC, cast boolit out of it at 2400fps. no leading and accuracy was pretty good.

Get the 14T is my suggestion.

[sundog]

There was also some loaded rounds and some bullets -- 180s. Don't know what I'll use them for.... Anyone want to buy them - look like hornady or speer spire points. The loaded rounds appear to be new for an Ackley Improved. I'll pull them - don't know what's in them. My Whelen has NEVER had a heathen round through it. Can't imagine doing so now. btw, my 3589 is the David Mos Improved and it shoots 'purdy good'.

[felix]

2 inches at 200 is more than purdy good, Corky! Especially, considering the recoil with that 280 at 1900. ... felix

[runfiverun]

jebus john i understood what you said in that post and know why you said it.
i must have learnt something in here at some time.
however i would opt for a 14 twist,why cause they don't make a 13 twist 35 as far as i know without going to extreme expense,which ain't necessary.

[Blammer]

Yes, the 358009 280gr at 1930 is a STOUT recoil!

especially in an 8lb gun!

[BrushBuster]

Thanks for the replies. 1:14 is the choice, and I better believe it!
Obviously lots of knowledgeable Whelen fans out there, and you can be sure I'll keep asking questions. This is the only cartridge that gets me excited to work with. If the 200 and 250+ boolits work well, then I will have my hunting requirements met and this gun won't see another J bullet.

Very thought provoking post Bass; thanks

[sundog]

DJ, ya hafta lean into it....

[runfiverun]

brush there are rumors of a flat point type boolit in the works for the 35 cals.
might be a good hunting with velocity type boolit.
keep yer eyes open.

[R.C. Hatter]

I have an old Model 77 Ruger .35 Whelen that I have taken 71 head of deer with. I believe it to have a 1:16 twist, and it will shoot 225 gr. Nosler Partitions into 1" to 1-1/4" groups at 100 yards consistently. The load is 53.5 gr. IMR #4064 with CC1 primers.
I am confident that the Nosler Partition will kill a moose just as quick as any 250 gr. bullet made. Of the above mentioned 71 kills, they were made from 35-150 yards and no deer failed to drop in its tracks. All were one shot kills, and only one Partition was recovered from a deer. That particular deer was shot from the front, tangent to its spine. The bullet took out 13" of the spine, of which, no piece was found bigger than a grain of salt was found. The bullet skittered off the spine and was recovered between meat & hide in the right hip. The bullet exhibited the classic Nosler mushroom and still had a part of the nose section ahead of the partition. I see NO need to use any heavier bullet for game shooting in this caliber. I believe the twist should be chosen to fit the range of "standard" bullets for a given caliber, as to do otherwise would result in a specialty rifle, suited to only a few bullets, which may or may not be available in years to come.

[Shuz]

FWIW--I have a 24" Douglass bbl'd 35 Whelen built on a Rem 700 action. It has a 1:12 twist and stabilizes the Lyman 358009 @282g and Bhn 22, driven to 2150 fps real well. Accuracy is about 1"@100yds. It is a real thumper from the bench, and seems to hold zero from year to year so that I only have to fire a couplea shots to check! So far it has accounted for 2 British Columbian bull moose and 1 Wa. spike bull elk. I just learned yesterday that my son and I were drawn for "any bull" elk tags in the Dayton A hunt in the Blue Mtns of South east Washington State!!!Took 7 years!! Naturally the Whelen and 358009 is my choice once again.

[sundog]

Shuz, good on you!!! Naturally, a hunt report WITH pictures is a requirement, now that you've so shamelessly 'bragged' on getting drawn....

[BrushBuster]

R.C. Hatter:

Your post touches on a number of points that I have considered while starting to put together my first 35 Whelen. Our approach and perceived requirements are different though. Like you, I am an experienced hunter with a fifty-five year history of hunting in British Columbia. I've lost track of the number of moose that I have taken over the years while raising a family, and most of these were taken with a Marlin-.35 Remington. Moose are not difficult to kill, however if they are not killed quickly and on the spot, they will head for the absolute worst terrain you could imagine, and likely die up to their ears in swamp. I know, because I've had the experience of butchering them in ice-water. You want knock-down power when hunting moose. Big, well designed bullets with fairly rapid expansion for maximum shock and penetration; the .35 calibre excels here.

I generally hunt solo, and this brings another factor into consideration. After the moose is down, hunters in B.C. must keep alert to the new foraging aspects of Grizzly. Because of almost non-existant hunting of this species, they have become accustomed to rifle shots which now are perceived as harmless and indicating easy meat. The grizzly population is increasing and encounters are becoming more frequent. Another reason for a big bullet and knock-down power if needed!

Conditions change, and nowhere more so than here in central B.C.. Where I used to quietly skulk through forest lands, I now find myself encountering 1000 acre clear-cut logging tracts. My old iron-sighted Marlin just can't cope with most of the shooting distances now involved, and I need .35 calibre power at longer distance. This is why I am looking to shoot the heaviest boolit that I can shoot accurately in the Whelen, and at longer range than I'm used to. The Whelen also offers great ballistic efficiency, with minimal recoil; something pretty important to a 165 lb. weakling.

I'm a firm believer in doing your practice shooting and sighting-in with the same boolit that you hunt with, and I also have to consider costs, being retired and on a fixed income. Putting some thought and effort into a good CB is right up my alley. I've shot deer and moose with cast boolits, and am convinced that I can put together the loads that will work well for me in a Whelen.

Personal experiences of friends have clearly indicated that the larger .35 bullets-boolits are not stabilized adequately with a 1:16 twist, and this of course is especially noticeable on 200 yard range targets where they are either completely key-holed or missed the paper entirely. I don't wish to go there, so I have written off that slower twist rate. The larger .35 caliber bullets are what I want to shoot, and the lightest would be 200 grains for deer. This is what led me to ask for the optimum twist applicable to the heavy boolits.

Getting back to the 220 Nosler Partition, this is one fine bullet, and I have loaded them in my sons 7mm Mauser. This bullet turned his deer rifle into an effective moose killer which was seen clearly when he made a one-shot kill at 250 yards. If I was planning on shooting jacketed bullets, they would likely be the Nosler Partition. But I'm not, and want to leave this rifle to my son with an unworn barrel that will last his lifetime too. I plan to cast a large number of the boolit that work best for my needs, and as far as bullets becoming unavailable, I would expect the cast CB to be the last to go....wouldn't you agree?

Thanks for your input. Best Regards
(BrushBuster)
here's last years moose: RCBS 35-200 ACWW

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I had a 1917 rebarreled to 35 Whelan. I followed the advice of one Frank Barnes in one of his "Cartridges of the World" where he wrote that a twist of 1:12 would better stabilize bullets in the 280-300 grain weight group. Being sometimes the naive follower of overkill idealogy; when I had the barrel sent out, I asked for a 1:10 twist. The barrelmaker to whom the gunsmith sent it was of good reputation and he informed me that 1:10 was too fast and that he suggested 1:12 as the best to do the barrel in. I went along with that. I have been shooting Lyman #3589 ( with 00's now added) which casts pretty close to 300 grains. Off the bench it has been giving me 2.5"-3" groups at 100-150 yards with MV between 1900 and 2000. A number of powder combinations can be used to get that, but the recoil is not too much fun. A 300 grain bullet moving at that MV...especially at 2000-2200fps generates pretty much of a 2800-3000# of a ME ballpark and if used for hunting... then there isn't much of anything in the western hemisphere that it won't be effective on. I have made most of my casings by annealing and necking up 06"s and they work fine. I have found that using a small leather bag filled with rice as a recoil pad makes an hour or two at the bench more pleasant with the rifle. LLS

[Blammer]

lol corky....

I'm very thankfull of my 1" thick recoil pad on my Marlin, and the fact the stock fits me well, so the recoil is stiff but not terribly uncomfortable.

Old West Bullet Mould has a 358009 Flat Point that he has in stock, so no cherry fee involved.

Here's a pic of it. I have this boolit and like it so far in my 35 whelen, it's a bear to get to feed properly as it's such a blunt nose, so be aware of that.



Here is a comparison of a 358009 and the FP