Why not make your own jackets?

[barryjyoung]

Barry:

The term "OBI" is an acronym for "Open Back, Inclinable"

This simply means that the press is made with an opening behind the die bolster, so that long stock could extend through the die from the front of the machine to the back of it - or the wall behind it...

Incline ability means that the press base is adjustable, so that the press can be tipped back, with the front edge of the die significantly higher than the rear edge. This can be useful for clearing punched parts out the "open back" on high production setups, or to assist with banking parts into a tool without the need to use a stop on the front of a die.

OBI is a common feature, but not really important for what you plan to do. Just make sure the stroke length on any press you buy is somewhat longer than the longest jacket you intend to make. You can special order a press with a very short stroke for high speed jobs, but they are not common.

"Shut Height" is another term you may see. This is the dimension from the bottom of the ram to the table, with the crankshaft at the bottom of the stroke. Almost meaningless if you will be making dies to fit the machine. Again, machines could be orderd with unusual shut height measurements - either very large, or somewhat reduced.

Clutches.
Most smaller presses use a mechanical clutch. It is a dog or key type with a very abrupt engagement. Imagine a keyway in that flywheel with a key in the crankshaft that can be engaged by a lever. One revolution, and it drops out. Many older presses had a simple foot pedal to acuate a mechanical trip lever.

Larger presses (20 tons or so) may have air clutches. I have seen 100 ton units with a plain old mechanical clutch however. It depends on the age, and who ordered it. Air clutches are usually an annular piston with a dry, multi disc clutch.

Clicking clutches.
When a mechanical clutch is worn, filthy or needs adjustment it will begin to "click". I have walked past many a press with the telltale "click" once per revolution of the flywheel. This is the key, kissing the edge of the flywheel slot. It is not the end of the world, but a fair warning that some maintence should be performed.

In the current atmosphere of light beam safety curtains, two hand controls, OSHA etc. a press with an audible click is treated like a grenade missing a pin. I bought a nice 10 ton unit with a broken 20 cent coil spring because it was clicking and "might malfunction". Took almost half an hour to fix. I sold it later for a significant profit.

It sounds like you are building a nice shop. I like the micro gantry CNC. You will be doing more 220v work as you add industrial machines. You will need to become familar with VFD's for your equipment. A VFD pays for itself quickly, and gives you variable speeds on things like a step head Bridgeport. I installed a VFD & a 3 phase motor on my pool pump a few years ago, and it paid for itself in 11 months @ 10 cents / Kwh.

B.

Hi B:

Thank you so much for all the information. I looked everywhere for an explanation of OBI. As soon as you said it was Open Back Inclinable I knew exactly what you meant. It was an Aha moment. No more guessing about that!

I installed a VFD and DC motor on my lathe to allow variable speed. I am pretty familiar with variable frequency drives.

I totally get the dog clutch and key clutch concept, thank you. I guess that would be a lot cheaper and easier than an electric clutch.

At this point I probably have enough information to construct a punch press from scratch. If I had more time than money. Which happens sometimes. Right now I have more money than time so I will be awaiting the right deal after the big check shows up. Shipping on the last punch press I saw was $250 which I thought was pretty reasonable compared to my driving to Florida from Seattle. I have the month of August off so I would consider a long drive to get the right press then. Any way you look at it, this will be a great adventure.

The 20 ton air over hydraulic press I bought to make a swaging press from will now be used in a dedicated lead extrusion press.

No Corbin products for the time being. I want to make my own drawing and swaging dies. It would be quicker to buy Corbin, but making the dies would be more rewarding and it really is not rocket science. The more I read the easier it seems. I may invest in an air gage however. I see pretty inexpensive ones on evilbay. I am beginning to wonder why the swage die boys charge so much.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

Can someone show me an example of a double action press that you would use for a blanking and cupping die? Page 9 of Ammunition Making mentions this type of a press and I've never seen one.

Hi Stiles:

Here is a picture of a punch press which is the right device for making jackets and probably for swaging bullets too.

You can also do jacketmaking with a bullet swage press like those sold by David Corbin at

http://www.corbins.com/

and his brother Richard Corbin at

http://rceco.com/MN.asp?pg=MetalWHill

We are learning a lot about punch presses from bohica2xo on this list. read his posts and you will learn a lot too.

Barry

[stiles]

I've spent a bit of time in tool and die in a stamping shop years ago but all I really did in tool and die was the wire edm burns on the die plates, no real design or anything like that. All the press were standard punch press from 8-250 tons but they were all single ram press. A double action or double crankshaft press has concentric rams that work out of phase of each other so one can do blanking and the second/center ram will cup the blank, at least that's what the text says. I googled around for double action press double crankshaft press and the only press I saw that where of that type started at 100 tons which is way too big. I was hoping to find something like this in a 20-30 ton press, smaller would work but IIRC the ram velocity starts to get nice and slow around 20 tons. Yea that's still too big.

There may be a way to blank and draw in one hit with a standard punch press but I don't know how.

I figure a purpose built hydraulic press would probably be the most economical solution, something similar to what Corbin is doing with their jacket maker. That's just my guess though. A dual crankshaft press would be awesome, banging out 12 or more blanked and cupped jackets per hit is just they was to go if you can swing it.

[barryjyoung]

A dual crankshaft press would be awesome, banging out 12 or more blanked and cupped jackets per hit is just they was to go if you can swing it.

I always mess up my hobbies by making them businesses. I did it with photography, screen printing, camera repair , woodworking, and cameramaking, I think I want to make one at a time just so I don't do something stupid like attempt competing with Hornady or Sierra.

Barry

[highscore]

I've spent a bit of time in tool and die in a stamping shop years ago but all I really did in tool and die was the wire edm burns on the die plates, no real design or anything like that. All the press were standard punch press from 8-250 tons but they were all single ram press. A double action or double crankshaft press has concentric rams that work out of phase of each other so one can do blanking and the second/center ram will cup the blank, at least that's what the text says. I googled around for double action press double crankshaft press and the only press I saw that where of that type started at 100 tons which is way too big. I was hoping to find something like this in a 20-30 ton press, smaller would work but IIRC the ram velocity starts to get nice and slow around 20 tons. Yea that's still too big.

There may be a way to blank and draw in one hit with a standard punch press but I don't know how.

I figure a purpose built hydraulic press would probably be the most economical solution, something similar to what Corbin is doing with their jacket maker. That's just my guess though. A dual crankshaft press would be awesome, banging out 12 or more blanked and cupped jackets per hit is just they was to go if you can swing it.

There is a way to blank and cup in one operation. Check out Baird Transfer Press and if the pics are detailed enough, you will see how it is done. Basically, the blank punch blanks out the material and upon hitting dead bottom center, holds down the blanked material until a drawing punch comes through the blank punch and draws the blank through the cup die. Unfortunately, depending on the exact dims required, the cup needs to go through more draws and then the excess head "clipped" off. A complete jacket is the end result. If you have the ambition, you can do them "one at a time" but...
Bob

[highscore]

I had to laugh when I read the post about the Benchmaster OBI press. I had two of them that I sold this spring after over a year of trying. They were 3 ton and had safety controls on them. I put them on Craigs list and another internet forum and decided that if they did not go, the scrap man was getting them. As it turned out, they made it out alive with three days to spare. $200 each, I thought it was a good deal.
Bob

[Jon]

Is there anything less expensive than corbin? I can't afford $800 to make 223 from 22lr.

[Storydude]

Is there anything less expensive than corbin? I can't afford $800 to make 223 from 22lr.

Gotta pay to play.


That is, unless you know a Tool and Die maker.

[barryjyoung]

Is there anything less expensive than corbin? I can't afford $800 to make 223 from 22lr.

Buying bullets is cheaper.

For me it isn't about cheap. If it were, I would have to do the math to find out that making 22 bullets from 22lr jackets saves me about 2 cents per bullet for a LOT of work. Don't forget to include the time spent learning to swage, finding "free" materiials, boiling those free 22lr cases to loosen the priming mixture, cleaning them, annealing them, and all the time taken to turn them into bullets.

Unless you are planning on making runs in excess of 100,000 bullets (twice the lifetime of steel dies), you are going to lose money swaging bullets. In my opinion anyway, and I have never done it, I have just taken a stab at crunching some numbers.

I see lots of people talking about how they want to save money bullet swaging or even handloading. I wonder how many of them consider ALL the costs and then calculate how much they are saving?

Good luck in your swaging. I hope you find something that works for you.

Barry

[inuhbad]

Barryjyoung, most peoples' interest in this subject isn't necessarily a Cost Related concern... It's about sustainability.

Many of the people here view themselves as somewhat of a Do-It-Yourselfer, and some of them consider themselves to be 'survivalists'. However, in the long-term, a true survivalist is someone that lives a fully sustainable lifestyle. Somebody who doesn't rely upon others to SELL them goods they might NEED.

For example, the current primer scarcity. Most people can't find any primers anywhere no matter how much they look... There was a time as well when BULLETS cannot be found anywhere for purchasing. Massive price increases & gouging... All kinds of supply-related problems with ammunition.

That's why I got into CASTING bullets - Locally, I couldn't FIND any ammunition! There are still several sporting goods stores in this state that are COMPLETELY out of stock with some pistol & rifle caliber ammunition! Hunting ammo, FMJ ball ammo, plinking ammo - you name it --> IT'S GONE!

I drove a good ~90 miles, but they were asking $40 for a 50rd box of ammo!!!

Instead, I decided since I load my own ammo for nearly all of my calibers, I'll just start casting my own bullets! I couldn't FIND anything in stock, and most online places were showing 'out of stock - no backorder'.

Such is still the case with Primers unfortunately.

At least I have enough powder, boolits (now that I can cast my own), and plenty of cases - I just need primers!

Since some of my rifles (AR-15s, etc.) prefer J-Bullets, it would seem fiscally conservative and more sustainable if you could just head down to the construction supplier store, pick up a 100 foot roll of copper shims, and then produce your OWN jacketed bullets.

I'm NOT going to go buying the 22 LR die set - not anymore - the jackets they create are actually rather 'thin' for high velocity bullets. I've started talking with some tool & die makers, reading up on some books, and I'm going to design & machine MY OWN jacket forming dies & punches!



There's a TON of information out there on how to do this - and if you also have a friend in the industry as a die designer, it's CERTAINLY a feasible option to buy the right materials, chuck them up in a lathe, and start cutting your own dies & punches.

I have an RCBS RockChucker II, and I also have access to a powered 20-ton Air-Over-Hydraulic H-press. I figure it'll take me months to further digest all the vast amounts of information in these books, and consult my friend for advice & assistance based upon his experience designing dies for years - and then I'll get started on the lathe to churn out my first set of dies.

I won't get much progress on this project for this year, but at least it's good to get started with the researching & designing.

If you're not living a sustainable lifestyle, you'd better have a good stockpile on hand of things that you cannot produce yourself - or you might someday be out of luck if the supply disappears or of the costs skyrocket too far out of your reach.

[barryjyoung]

inuhbad:

Sorry, can't buy that. If it was about being self sufficient you would worry about many other things before bullets. Like gasoline, salt, sugar, flour and Cheetos brand cheese snacks.

For the $2800 it would cost to buy everything you needed from Corbin to make jacketed bullets, you could buy one heckuva lot of bullets from Sierra or Hornady. Add to this that you would not have to do the labor on all of those bullets. Again, consider that that $2800 worth will NOT make $2800 worth of bullets, it is just enough to get started. Nope, I have to believe that people make their own jacketed bullets because it is such a cool and enjoyable thing to do.

I am curious if you are talking to us on the PC you made from scratch (making the resistors, capacitors and integrated circuits yourself so that you can maintain your self sufficiency principals) and then drove it home in your scratchbuilt pickup in the name of sustainability? Do you buy things? If so, why are you so against buying bullets in particular?

I love this line of reasoning if for no other reason than the lunacy of it,,,,"If the economy completely folds I want to be able to continue consuming my 1000 rounds per month IPSC activities". Ha! If the economy tanks that badly nobody will be worried about shooting sports, they will be worried about shooting looters. You don't need 20,000 rounds to shoot looters. So anybody who goes to the trouble of making jacketed bullets to maintain their shooting sports in the new dark age is nuts.

I just want to make jacketed bullets cause it is something fascinating and wonderful.

Thanks for trying to straighten me out though.

Barry

[deltaenterprizes]

Ha! If the economy tanks that badly nobody will be worried about shooting sports, they will be worried about shooting looters. You don't need 20,000 rounds to shoot looters.



Barry

If it gets that bad, it will be like playing IPSC 24/7 and with only 20,000 rounds you may be a little short on ammo!

[barryjyoung]

Delta:

I love it.

Geez, I hope it never gets that bad.

Barry

[bohica2xo]

The foxfire books? really? Allrighty then.

Design & build dies to make bullets in a 20 ton, single acting hydraulic press? OK, I guess.

I suspect I could add bicycle pedals to my B&S 00 screw machine if the lights go out, and keep spanking out bullets in the dark - and lose a few pounds too. All I need to stockpile is some 12L14 barstock. My AR's love that bullet...

With a punchpress you can make cases - or primers if you want. The learning curve on primers is awful steep I hear.

If you have a machine shop, and the skills to run it you can make most anything. I can grind a button & rifle a barrel If I really want to. I still buy barrel blanks, primers, cases, etc. I guess I am too lazy to be self sufficient.

Delta - IPSC is too close for me. I think I will start at rifle ranges.

B.

[barryjyoung]

The foxfire books? really? Allrighty then.
B.

Last night I spoke with my students about generating first surfaces by hand scraping. I am pretty sure the Foxfire books have an excellent discussion about how to make a surface plate. Surely that is one of the first things that would be required to rebuild civilization after armageddon.

If you lived in a fourth world country, you might have a kerosene powered screw machine.

Speaking of screw machines. People are basically giving them away. I may look for one of those too. I might just have the room for a 00.

Barry

[bohica2xo]

Barry:

I suspect my granite plate will survive most disasters. If not, one of millions of granite countertops across this nation will have to do...

The last foxfire book I read was awfully crude. My father was a blacksmith, and I already have those skills - and tools. I think of foxfire as a good place to look for hog rendering skills. Making a multistage punchpress die after reading a foxfire book seems like a big stretch to me.

Yes, mechanical screw machines are going for scrap value. I paid 250 bucks for a beat 00, because of the tooling I got with it (60 pounds of Cogsdill roller units in a box) and as a parts machine. I recovered the cost rather quickly.

Hardinge AHC's don't bring much anymore either. Buying good, american made machine tools now, while prices are depressed seems like a good idea to me. I just wish I had more space to put it all.

"A kerosene powered screw machine". Not a big stretch. I have a Listeroid out at the ranch, and my dad's original shop still had an overhead shaft. I know how to make that work. My brother still has the drillpress, and the universal mill with the 4" drives for a flat belt. I helped him put a bridgeport head on the overarm. My heavy 10 still has a leather belt.

Stockpiling raw materials is another thing. We both know how steel is made, but there is no way we could produce a decent grade of steel at home. I still make parts from 52100, so there is always plenty of that on hand - it would be a PITA to make a barrel from, but I could do it.

I seriously doubt I will ever need to make barrels or bullets by hand to survive. I keep shooting one way or another for practice. A decent air pistol & 500 pellets a month keeps the sight work & trigger control sharp. The lack of 'yotes at the ranch is due to rifle "practice". Yes, primers are hard to find right now. The panic will settle eventually.

B.

[inuhbad]

I don't see why some are so quick to mock people in their replies here. I do a fair bit of machining work, I do CAD design and some engineering work for a profession, my family owns an association of farms with LOTS of livestock & cropland (THEY own it - not some bank) so food is a non-issue. I don't have to focus on preparations as that area is rather well taken care of by myself and others.

That said, I find my idea of machining my own set of dies to be a fairly feasible undertaking. Especially with the help of a friend who has worked in tool & die design for nearly the past 30 years. I'll be drawing up my designs, then running them past him for critique prior to machining anything.

In my industry, I've learned and come to appreciate the fact that catching flaws & errors in the design phase will save a person untold sums of wasted money when you start attempting any prototyping work.

Although I know someone who owns an old beat-up gap-frame flywheel press he won't let me use it for liability reasons. So I'll stick with a 20ton Air/Hydraulic press hooked to an air compressor with a foot-actuated pedal to run it hands-free. Granted it's a slower press - but I don't find it impossible to accomplish this task.

You DON'T need lots of tonnage to punch out blanks, press cups, and expand them into jackets...

Please forgive me if I don't post a more thorough clarification as to what I posted earlier. I'm sorry my replies don't come in a more facetious, presumptive, or dismissive manner when discussing ideas, processes, and information. Since I don't know how much (or how little) a person knows about various subjects or professions I'll continue to check my ego at the door and leave the juvenile commentary to others.

I can see I will not get any further information or ideas from others here. Sorry for the intrusion - best of luck to you in all your future endeavors.

[highscore]

I don't see why some are so quick to mock people in their replies here. I do a fair bit of machining work, I do CAD design and some engineering work for a profession, my family owns an association of farms with LOTS of livestock & cropland (THEY own it - not some bank) so food is a non-issue. I don't have to focus on preparations as that area is rather well taken care of by myself and others.

That said, I find my idea of machining my own set of dies to be a fairly feasible undertaking. Especially with the help of a friend who has worked in tool & die design for nearly the past 30 years. I'll be drawing up my designs, then running them past him for critique prior to machining anything.

In my industry, I've learned and come to appreciate the fact that catching flaws & errors in the design phase will save a person untold sums of wasted money when you start attempting any prototyping work.

Although I know someone who owns an old beat-up gap-frame flywheel press he won't let me use it for liability reasons. So I'll stick with a 20ton Air/Hydraulic press hooked to an air compressor with a foot-actuated pedal to run it hands-free. Granted it's a slower press - but I don't find it impossible to accomplish this task.

You DON'T need lots of tonnage to punch out blanks, press cups, and expand them into jackets...

Please forgive me if I don't post a more thorough clarification as to what I posted earlier. I'm sorry my replies don't come in a more facetious, presumptive, or dismissive manner when discussing ideas, processes, and information. Since I don't know how much (or how little) a person knows about various subjects or professions I'll continue to check my ego at the door and leave the juvenile commentary to others.

I can see I will not get any further information or ideas from others here. Sorry for the intrusion - best of luck to you in all your future endeavors.

If this is what you want to do, that's cool. A lot of work but... If you let me know the dims of what you want to do, I can give you the breakdown for your starting thickness and width of material needed, and percentages of reduction. Dia, length, thickness of both the bottom and side wall is what you have to decide on.
Bob

[barryjyoung]

I don't see why some are so quick to mock people in their replies here. I do a fair bit of machining work, I do CAD design and some engineering work for a profession, my family owns an association of farms with LOTS of livestock & cropland (THEY own it - not some bank) so food is a non-issue. I don't have to focus on preparations as that area is rather well taken care of by myself and others.

That said, I find my idea of machining my own set of dies to be a fairly feasible undertaking. Especially with the help of a friend who has worked in tool & die design for nearly the past 30 years. I'll be drawing up my designs, then running them past him for critique prior to machining anything.

In my industry, I've learned and come to appreciate the fact that catching flaws & errors in the design phase will save a person untold sums of wasted money when you start attempting any prototyping work.

Although I know someone who owns an old beat-up gap-frame flywheel press he won't let me use it for liability reasons. So I'll stick with a 20ton Air/Hydraulic press hooked to an air compressor with a foot-actuated pedal to run it hands-free. Granted it's a slower press - but I don't find it impossible to accomplish this task.

You DON'T need lots of tonnage to punch out blanks, press cups, and expand them into jackets...

Please forgive me if I don't post a more thorough clarification as to what I posted earlier. I'm sorry my replies don't come in a more facetious, presumptive, or dismissive manner when discussing ideas, processes, and information. Since I don't know how much (or how little) a person knows about various subjects or professions I'll continue to check my ego at the door and leave the juvenile commentary to others.

I can see I will not get any further information or ideas from others here. Sorry for the intrusion - best of luck to you in all your future endeavors.

I was not mocking you. I was mocking the idea that you wanted to make dies to make jacketed bullets in the name of sustainability. That is what you said. Re-read your post.

I will help you in any way that I can. I would love to see you succeed in your diemaking project. I think it is a cool and doable project. I just don't think it should be for any reason besides the fun of it. Survival? People interested in being ready just stockpile, they don't make stuff like jacketed bullet swaging dies or primers.

Seriously. I want to help you.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

If this is what you want to do, that's cool. A lot of work but... If you let me know the dims of what you want to do, I can give you the breakdown for your starting thickness and width of material needed, and percentages of reduction. Dia, length, thickness of both the bottom and side wall is what you have to decide on.
Bob

Hi Bob:

Can you share the formulas?

Thank you

Barry