If you want it really red, use Yaley powdered candle dye. It should be more firm than NRA 50/50 lubes. I use heat on my sizers if the room temp is below about 80. If you need to soften it some, reaheat it and add about a tablespoon-sized glob of vaseline per half-pound.
Gear
Yeah I went out looking what was available here and only found some blue, liquid candle coloring. So I went with that then, since apparently blue is the easiest
I'll remember that for the next batch though.
Can any one confirm if this is a harder lube, soft or moosh?
About like Javelina, flows through my Lyman at room temperatures without needing any heat.
Some times it's the pot,
Some times it's the pan,
It might even be the skillet,
But, most of the time, it's the cook.
Mooshy in 90 degree weather?Originally Posted by C.F.Plinker
Cooked a new batch of felix lube over the weekend, instead of ATF oil I used liquid paraffin oil. Because the ATF oil stinks to high heaven when I cooked it up the last time, and it comes out a bit when shooting too.
I added 10 grams more of the beeswax and a teaspoon of carnauba for a slightly harder result. I've remelted it 4-5 times now, just put the plate on 1 and leave it alone for 40 minutes to melt.
Can't detect any separation or anything in this, though I wonder if I ruined the lanolin because I only took the thing from the heat and then stirred it in, didn't wait any before it I added it. How would that be detectable if so?
Laaaate EDIT: Well I poured some of this new batch into my star and tested it out. I like this version a lot more because it doesn't make everything tacky and sticky like the old lube did, I had some .45ACP bullets with the old lube in a plastic bag and boy where they sticky after I took them out.
Last edited by HDS; 08-29-2012 at 05:26 AM.
So you size and lube a bullet with felix lube. Would it be bad to add kroil to the out side of the bullet so it can feed through a mr bullet feeder perfectly and not gum it up? I have tried it and it works perfectly however it does change the viscosity of the lube in the lube ring once applied to the outside of the bullet. Will this change the affect of the lubricant or create more smoke?
Hi everyone, my name is Steven.
I've been chatting with Felix about some views on bullet lube, I know I'm walking into an ancient old subject full of vast subjectivity and diversity. I don't claim to know much, but after some encouragement from Felix to get involved in the threads, I'll do my best to contribute what I do know and will test what I can. I'll starting by sharring I attempted to create a bullet lube, but I wasn't satisfied with my work so I tossed everything and decided to take my theories in Felix's direction. I'll share what I do know so others can correct any false theories of mine and I guess we'll go from there.
Some of my proclaimed understandings are:
1.) I understand Moly does virtually illuminates leading, but significant exposure can create rifts in a barrel, leading to multiple complications.
2.) Beeswax begins to soften at 90° and melts between 143° and 151°. The flashpoint (temperature at which beeswax flares up and burns fiercely) is 490° to 525°. It bonds well and is relatively stable.
3.) Many Alox blend lubes are non-toxic, but contribute to unessary amounts of smoke. (Hence the encouragement for shooting in a well ventilated area).
4.) Paraffin Wax is relatively stable, but significantly contribute to large, unnecessary amounts of smoke.
5.) Purified anhydrous lanolin in a cosmetic grade is a non-toxic, natural lubricant that helps a lube stick to a bullet. Mild stability unless mixed with a more stable compound such as Sodium Stearate.
6.) Carnauba wax is a prominent ingredient in bullet lubes as a hardener and keeps bores bright and shiny.
7.) Sodium Stearate is a chemical product in Stearic Acid, however Stearic Acid can corrode copper and brass. Pure Sodium Stearate is an effective stabilizer in preventing multiple compounds in a mix from separating into layers and when enough is added to a lube, the lube's melting point can be increased to 180°.
8.) Refined Safflower oil has very high smoke temp around 510° (some claim 450°). Esters (products of lubrication) of castor oil had higher viscosity than safflower oil derived esters. (A quick note on the term viscosity, I commonly find people who believe it means flow, it's actually the opposite. Viscosity means "Resistance to Flow". Example: beeswax has a higher viscosity than water.) I shared the viscosity comment due to the consistency in mis-understandings... Should we blame the urban dictionary, politics behind education, or cats?
9.) About all petroleum products that reach a smoke point experience "ashing". Ashing on a micro level is leaving deposits that can act as an abrasive and decrease accuracy. Large amounts of ash deposits can shear the barrel, of course on a micro level so it would be a very long time before noticeable difference can be established, however I find decreased accuracy a worthy issue. Mineral oil has a lower smoke point than desired sooooo I would not encourage its use.
10.) Two different types of non-fossil derived oil are: monounsaturated fatty acid (oleic acid) and polyunsaturated fatty acid (linoleic acid). Polyunsaturated oil has a reputation for complications in industrial use (involving more than just lubricants) for multiple reasons, primary because it is simply unstable. Dr Allan Green, Deputy Chief of CSIRO Plant Industry and his team has been using "gene silencing technology" to boost the level of desirable oleic acid while cutting the level of linoleic acid in safflower seeds by switching off oleic acid's conversion to the undesirable polyunsaturates. (Quote) "We have succeeded in dramatically lowering the polyunsaturates to below 3%, thereby raising the monounsaturate oleic acid to over 90%." -Dr Green (End Quote)
11.) All though a product might be labeled "non-toxic", mixing compounds changes compounds (thus requiring toxicity testing. What may be non-toxic via ingestion may be toxic via inhalation. All lube should be tested for toxicity in a lab, yes?
I'll end it there. I'll be ordering this “super-high oleic safflower oil" for testing. I don't find it necessary for a double blind study, LOL, but I will have a control group established in effort to avoid bias. Ok Felix, I left words on a forum, but was it the preferred one? -Steve
Good job, Steve! One good point raised was the effects of the stearates on copper stuff. The "Quest" thread is making severe use of it, mainly because of its effects of keeping the barrel clean during marathon shoot outs by disallowing unexpected lube coagulation and purging. ... felix
felix
Steven and Felix:
I have been performing copper-corrosion testing per a loose facsimile of the ASTM method (test # escaped me at the moment) with several dozen varieties of lube formulas containing 30% or more sodium stearate by weight for over a year now, and made numerous observations of barrels, tools, sizers, and other equipment exposed to the lube for extended periods of time and conclude that there is no harm to using it in high percentages provided the bore is oiled after use as insurance.
Many of the formulas I've tested using very high sodium stearate percentages shoot so "dry" as to leave insufficient protective oil film in the bore for long-term storage to prevent rust. My conclusion is that the sodium soap is only an indirect cause of corrosion due to lack of residuals from the firing event as opposed to other lube formulas that leave more oil/wax coating in the bore.
Stearic acid is a no-no in lube and contributes mightily to gradual corrosion of all tools and components exposed to it. Boolit lube needs to have a neutral pH and not promote galvanic action when exposed to humid environments. Sodium stearate is a metal salt formed from the acid/base reaction of stearic acid and sodium hydroxide per the lye soap formula. When melted in the presence of any oil, the metal stearate "salt" acts as a gellant and makes what's technically called a "grease", same as the other, more familiar metal hydroxide lubricating greases such as lithium, calcium, antimony, aluminum, and several others.
With regard to the list, I'd say that
1.) Moly disulfide isn't a cure all for leading or anything else, and can easily create bore condition issues (particularly gradual accumulation when used with soft lead boolits that don't "wipe" it as clean every shot as copper jackets do) over time, sometimes in as little as ten shots.
2.) Beeswax is good. It's a very good high-strength film lubricant and it's micro-crystalline ester structure is very effective in retaining lubricating oils. Disadvantages are few, but significant, particularly with regard to hot storage conditions and the low scorch point.
3.) I wouldn't say that oxidized petroleum fractions (essentially the definition of all the Alox compounds) are relatively non-toxic unless compared to things we wouldn't handle without special PPE. As far as smoke goes, Alox leaves a lot of ash behind, but how much smoke it generates depends on the conditions of shooting. In the case of liquid Alox applied to the surface per "tumble lube" method, smoke is quite noticeable and offensive to many.
4.) Paraffin IS very stable, with the exception of temperature considerations, although some varieties have melt points considerably higher than beeswax. I used to be a firm believer that paraffin smoked badly and had no place in boolit lube, but when combined with large amounts of sodium stearate I've found that it does not smoke at all, while Barry Darr's lube formula smokes badly at times. This is too subjective to make any definitive statement.
5.) Lanolin is a powerful extreme-pressure wax as well. Aside from possible, but not yet fully isolated and proven, cold weather "gum" issues, it makes an excellent additive, particularly in black powder lube recipes where its inherent hygroscopic qualities are very desirable.
6.) True. It's also hygroscopic and the shiny coat it leaves behind changes with humidity and exposure time, which tends to cause temperature or weather-related first-shot inconsistencies. I have seen no true advantage to using it in lube, although in beeswax-based lubes a small amount adds viscosity and raises the melt point a tiny amount. 5% by weight is what I consider the maximum treatment level for any lube.
7.) Covered above.
8.) Interesting. Felix forwarded the info to me and I have contemplated it. Various esters appear to have excellent lubricating and binding properties in lube. Cetyl Esters NF is a cosmetic-grade, artificial "spermecetti wax" that is used in at least one highly successful commercial boolit lube. The drawbacks that I've seen personally to the esters is lack of viscosity under pressure, meaning they're simply too slippery sometimes or if too much is used. They are probably the best oil-type lubricants available, though, and leave little ash when decomposed. They blend well with just about anything, and can often "emulsify" or stabilize combinations like PAO and Group II oils that otherwise tend to separate.
9.).............
Will have to continue later, lunch break is past!
Ian
Ian, I loved your response, very informative. A flamboyant read really.
So I tracked down a distributor for the genetically modified plants here in the U.S.
Contact Info:
Oilseeds International, Ltd.
8 Jackson Street
San Francisco, CA 94111
Main Line: 415-956-7251
Fax: 415-394-9023
Apparently they've modified other plants as well. I couldn't find any comprehensive testing other than charting its compounds.
Continued....
9). Ashing. Well, if the lube doesn't burn, it doesn't ash, does it? This is where the metal stearates really shine: They seem to lock up the oil and protect it from burning. In many instances, I don't think the lube burns much at all inside the gun, and powder/primer residue is far more significant from an abrasive aspect than lube residuals. Just my two cents, remember I've never smeared myself with grease/wax/oil and shot myself out of a gun, so I can't really say what sort of experience boolit lube has during a firing event.
10.) Very interesting, good info. I found some good reading involving the production of crankcase oil from rapeseed oil (Can-Ola) and certain esters of fatty acids were the feed stock derived from the oil. It's one of the better base lubricants available.
11). Good point. When developing "Extreme boolit lube", one of the requirements was a reasonable low-tox level, both with handling and shooting. There is a very significant risk of inhalation when shooting the stuff, and things that thermally decompose into nasties (Teflon, Flourinated greases, etc.) are off the "to try" list for sure. Also, I feel that silicates like pyrotechnic (or fumed) silica are out due to the inhalation risk, although such is perfectly fine when consumed in a milkshake.
Gear
Good Morning Steve.... and welcome to the forum!
Could you share with the group where the “super-high oleic safflower oil" can be ordered from?
Thanks, Eutectic
It's sold online AS CHEAP AS $10 for 32oz. (before shipping and taxes). I didn't find any in Wal-Mart, but I did find a 16 oz bottle of Spectrum High Heat Safflower Oil in a "Smith's grocery Store" for $6.48 after taxes. Two bottles of this in a store was cheaper than buying online and paying for shipping. I would call aroud to some local grocery stores and see which one has that brand, or if you want to buy online anyways you could Google " Spectrum High Heat Safflower Oil. The Oleic content averages 77% in these bottles and has a lot of language involving deep frying food products.
Here's what's interesting.... a company in Montana apparently made an oil product averaging 85 + in Oleic content... they apparently went out of business for some no good cause in 2008 (before the application of this genetic enhancing process was discovered in 2012) ...... odd huh.... and stranger enough ANOTHER company bought them out and "lost their business license" due to tax evasion.... and then High Oleic Oil was born a couple years later by a company who magically enough ALREADY had property, investment, equipment, harvests established ready to rock and roll..... I've seen big businesses do this all the time to smaller businesses who create a good idea. They crush a small biz by making them impossible to find online by creating **** loads of websites with similar search tags, get reps of the state to find excuses to fine them, get the IRS to nit pick them, and when they're struggling a newly established business in the area will 1.) offer a generous amount of money to buy their patiented process, 2.) make promises to support the locals because many honest, sincere employers will care very much about the employees who posed loosing their jobs are put to rest with promises of their workers getting re-hired in the line of work they're already qualified in. 3.) the new small biz finds an excuse to go belly up and ALL the sudden the birth of a new market that has VERY high industrial promises for profit. If you asked a greedy rich man to spell the word integrity, he'd reach for a dictionary.
Sorry for rambling.... the brand I quoted may not be THE best available, I couldn't find any specific brand names claimed to be marketed under that Australian company who claims they designed the genetic manipulation process. You might have to contact them directly to see if there's a difference between what I quoted you and a special blend they distribute.
.......By the way.... does anyone think they would care to see the filtered ventilation system I've built for my casting pot? ......it has saved my neighbors from worrying about being "down wind". I'm probably the only guy in Salt Lake City who has something like that.
If you're gonna buy online:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0035XP13A
Find out what your local grocery stores have. I paid $6.48 for 16oz at a local market... If everyone really wants the honest truth, I have no confidence that I could test a lube better than some of the men I've been listening to on these forums.... would someone like to take it on themselves to see how this oil would perform?? I shoot a Springfield 1911 A-1 .45 packerized Loaded Series, but my aim claims no professional reliability, nor do I have a speed meter.
Thanks a lot for the info Steven.
I have thought about Safflower Oil for a while now. Every since I heard that restaurants were using it in salad dressing to prevent 'clouding' of the dressing when made-up salads were refrigerated... It seems Safflower Oil not only takes heat with the best of vegetable oils but the cold too! I can only see better coming from the genetic version you found!
Vegetable Oils have merit in boolit lube. I really like Castor Oil too! It is an 'extreme' additive and in a perfect weather world from 50 to 80 degrees Felix's formula would be hard to beat! Heck.... It's hard to beat period! (Except maybe in cold starts?) I experimented quite a bit in fully saturated (gun and ammo at outside temp.) below zero temps. Below zero.... Here is where Castor Oil, polybutene, and others faulter with C.O.R.E. deposits causing accuracy failures.
I am tied up at the moment with my version of the TnT concept. It has shown us great traits, even in temps in the teens so far. I will continue to search for its 'Achilles Heel'..... hoping all along I DON'T FIND IT!
Thanks again! Eutectic
Forgive my ignorance. Can someone help me understand this? Are they failing to list everything? Is there a relationship between these and Sodium Stearate?
Cooked this up last night. It has 6 ounces castor oil, 12 ounces mineral oil and 1 TBS grated Ivory in it. My temps hit 350 a couple of times during the cooking, it was hard to regulate on my burner. It smells cooked, but not burned, kinda like cooking oil in use. It developed some form of precipitate while cooking, tiny white translucent flecks. I thought at first it was the soap not melting, but after an hour of cooking I doubt that now. Does this look about right? It was very liquid at heat, but developed ribbons like cooling jelly quickly as it cooled.
It sounds like you may have not stirred it enough when blending. It should get better each time you re-heat and stir it.Cooked this up last night. It has 6 ounces castor oil, 12 ounces mineral oil and 1 TBS grated Ivory in it. My temps hit 350 a couple of times during the cooking, it was hard to regulate on my burner. It smells cooked, but not burned, kinda like cooking oil in use. It developed some form of precipitate while cooking, tiny white translucent flecks. I thought at first it was the soap not melting, but after an hour of cooking I doubt that now. Does this look about right? It was very liquid at heat, but developed ribbons like cooling jelly quickly as it cooled.
The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"
Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!
You shoulda used 6 Tbsp of Ivory.........Cooked this up last night. It has 6 ounces castor oil, 12 ounces mineral oil and 1 TBS grated Ivory in it. My temps hit 350 a couple of times during the cooking, it was hard to regulate on my burner. It smells cooked, but not burned, kinda like cooking oil in use. It developed some form of precipitate while cooking, tiny white translucent flecks. I thought at first it was the soap not melting, but after an hour of cooking I doubt that now. Does this look about right? It was very liquid at heat, but developed ribbons like cooling jelly quickly as it cooled.
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