Felix Lube - the Short Version

[utk]

first attempt .... oil only ....got the mineral oil smoking hot ( 320-ish ) dropped down to 298 added the castor oil , since i was cooking a larger batch ( 20 oz + 10 oz ) i waited until it came back up to temp before beginning the hour count ( i also stirred and simmered some carne fresca con frijoles at the same time - note to self dont do that again i was starved by the time i got done lolz ) it hovered between 295 and 302 for an entire hour and a half while constantly stirring , i didnt have to let it set over nite , by the time it got to 190-ish i poured it in a large mouth mason jar , 10 minutes later clear and visible separation [sigh] i'll try cooking it again tomorrow nite because the carne fresca came out much much better and i'm so full now i'm sleepy lolz

Fryboy - Before you cook it some more - may I suggest you make a small sample-run of lube first?
Shake the jar real well to mix the oils before you measure up the quantity required for a small batch of lube (you can keep the oils mixed for a couple of minutes before they start to separate again).
Then, if you have no separations within the lube and all looks good, you can go ahead with the rest of the oils.

I too tried more cooking and also at higher temps to no avail. They always separated. One forum member suggested that the castor probably had been converted into longer chains already, even if it didn't hook up with the mineral. And that the stearic acid/sodium stearate/soap would do it's job in keeping the ingredients together.

Most people (including me) have probably done their lube in one sitting thus never observed this oil separation.

Read the posts above, before my heat tests. This separation has been discussed before!

[fryboy]

thanx guys !
actually i had thought about making a small batch because of the prior comments and urban's test results , the stuff i used came from a couple of places but all is relatively pure ,not sure any of it is termed "food grade " , laboratory grade tho ( wish the brown bottles were glass too but it did save them from breaking during shipping ) and yup i figured if i made a quart of the oil base i'd be set for life or at least until i ran out of beeswax lolz and i didnt want to stand there for a hour again lolz i used a electric stove and a very accurate and old thermometer ( if i wasnt single i prolly would be after that :P ) the thermo has a stainless steel body and a flat bottom and that is what i used to stir it with the whole time ( stirred the beef and beans when needed with the other hand (and a spoon) they at least came out perfect lolz ) i have enough of the two to try again ( about a pints worth mixed ) but i dont envision much difference in the outcome as i followed the destructions to a t and yes sir had i not made the carne fresca i mite have been unable to wait for the overnite separation test , i will state that neither layer looks like they did before i started but the separation line is pretty distinct, the mineral is now lite yellow instead of clear and the pale yellow castor oil is much darker than originally ( it was also much thicker than what i seen in stores ie; about pure ) , i wont be too far from a pharmacy later , think i'll try plain baby oil next

but that does leave a question ... the castor is the real lube so after the cooking what does the mineral oil do ? (nope gear i'm not even a ametuer scientist lolz ) as they sit right now i could siphon it of the top lolz

gabby , amigo , thanx for the tips and encouragement , knives and especially the handles are one of my fav hobbies ( reloading, shooting and boolits is more of an obsession ) mostly my knives are for flesh and skin ie; food , and for wood my finish has always been a handrubbed beeswax finish as it's a bit more durable , i've tried several various food safe products and nothing seems to give the warmth that beeswax does , i also understand u on the sensitive part , some perfumes and colognes i cant stand to be in the same building with , others give me about the only headaches i get and they pound worse and worse to where a man cant think or move ( much like superman and kryptonite ) the real funny part ? i used to trap fox, got alot of skunk ( they like alot of the same bait ) their skin wasnt worth much but the oil was ! seems they ummm attempt to deodorize it and use it as a base for some of the more expensive parfums , i can always tell tho as that odor to me is never quite deodorized or masked ( hmmmm ...wonder how skunk oil would work for lube..ought to stick fairly well as well as umm clear the range lolz )

update ,
in honor of ummm halloween approaching , lyman's original orange color , the fact it's hopefully going to go into the aforementioned sizer and the thought that orange should be easy to make yup u guessed it , my only deviation - a red-orange and a yellow orange crayon , anyways i made a pound of it ( thermo wont quite go into 3 TBLS. of oil in that pan ) i dont believe sticking to the boolit will be a problem ( if i ever get it out of the pan lolz ) i have a ball setting for separation test and i dipped lubed a few and pan lubed a few ( 6-7 of each ) the dip did ok the pan..... time will tell lolz ( did i mention it is awesomely sticky ? :P ) seems to be fairly solid at room temp yet still a lil softer than i'm used too but we'll see how my customary day's drying after sizing holds out before adjusting if needed , not done yet but to all those who helped me get here my humble thanx ( thanx amigos ! )

[Hammer]

Took the leap to work on my first batch of FWWFL.

Sat at the hot plate in the garage for one hour with the brew at 300 degrees.... You are right Felix, it is REALLY boring to do it in one step, but I am glad I now have that out of the way.

Made a blend of oil with 16 oz of mineral oil (not baby oil) and 8 oz of castor oil. No indication of separation at this time, but not sure I am too concerned at htis point. (300 degrees for 60 minutes as instructed by Wiljen and Gear)

Will check in the morning and place it in a jar for storage and weekend use after it has had a chance to cool down.

Looking forward to the start of the experiments...

Great job with all the posts! Have been reading this for several days and keep finding new nuggets every time I pick up the thred... Thanks to all that have tred here before me! You make it sound simple... Kn ow it was a struggle....

Ed

[geargnasher]

Remember, heat+time "polymerizes" the castor oil so it gets "fat" chains and won't weep droplets out of the finished lube. I used to believe that the mineral oil broke down during the cooking and lent a few atoms to the process, but have since studied the process a bit and discovered that castor bean oil will in fact make a fine plastic all by itself. I believe the mineral oil is mainly for tempering viscosity, but Felix could give more insight since he's the one that developed this in the first place.

The polymerizing the castor is not the same as homogenizing castor+mineral oil. If they separate after cooling and sitting a while, odds are it matters not as long as the chemistry of the castor has been changed. This separation was probably never noticed until we got lazy and started making larger batches of cooked oils at one shot, no telling how many hundreds of pounds of this stuff has been made and shot without anyone knowing the oils would have separated if they'd been allowed to cool before adding the rest of the ingredients.

Gear

[fryboy]

i tried it again ...this time i visited a local walgreens $4.99 + 4.99 + 4.95 or what ever it was ( 2 4.oz bottles of castor oil one 16 oz bottle of mineral oil , stopped at the local kroger/dillon's/fry's on the way home ... they had the mineral oil for ..... $1.99 [doh] i also picked up a bottle of J&J lite baby oil and came home and went stir crazy ( pun intended )
end results

after 1 1/2 hours of stirring @ 300 degrees the lab grade stuff i mail ordered in separated

after 1 1/2 hours of stirring @ 303 degrees the baby oil and castor separated

after 1 1/2 hours of stirring @ 303-308 degrees the food grade mineral and castor separated

after a hour break the last i put back in the pan for another hour @320 -330 degrees it turned a lil more golden color but again it separated

the small batch i made with the mail ordered stuff sweated in the window sill test , sweat may be the wrong word as the droplets were too small to be considered drops ( very little and very little ummm droplets that look more like it was lightly misted ) it was hot enough in the window sill to make the lube almost melted ( guessing 130-140 as i didnt put a thermo with it ) i'll try another batch later today with the food grade stuff

btw ? the baby oil batch turned out cloudy and not as dark as the other two , the food grade came out the darkest ..perhaps because of the vitamin e they added as a preservative ??

here's to hopin the stearic acid or sodium stearate binds it all together lolz

[kbstenberg]

I pre-mixed the Mineral spirits an the Caster oil for making F.L. After a month or so i noticed that the components had separated like what has been described previously. But i also have a third layer in the jar containing my ingredients. Its kind of an Amber color an very thin. And is between the M.S. an the Cas. O.
I did 45 min. heating while i continually stirred, at a temperature just under the smoking level.
I'm wondering if my premixed components have gone south on me or if they are still usable.
Just guessing that the 3 rd layer was some other chemical that was in the chemical makeup of my ingredients.
I have made F.L. before and have used both of the same Ingredients from the same bottles.
Thanks Kevin

[felix]

Mineral spirits might not be made to work as advertised, but using mineral oil or ATF instead should be fine. The spirit form, or any other "solvent" form, does not seem to aid any kind of polymerisation, and, in fact, might decompose later any chain expansion if formed. We cannot expect chemistry to act just right using any kind of home ambient or equipment. Even in industry, every batch/lot of finished product is expected to be different and must be tested to be within some spec. This is the valid most reason why some of these designer drugs are off the map in terms of cost. Smaller the batch, the smaller the component loss, but way more the dollar cost because of time. ... felix

[32-44]

As said before, after correct cooking, must the mineral oil and castor oil remain mixed if kept for further use? or must they be shaked or perhaps can we keep only the polymerized castor oil?
A question for Mr. Felix
Thanks
Gilles

[felix]

Ideally, yes! That is the objective for a really stable lube. But who says the lube must be absolutely stable? The only stability required is that the lube does not fall apart before the ammo is shot, and for us, that is all that counts in that department. Best department is how it shoots in terms of velocity and accuracy desired per gun the lube is manufactured for. As always, it is hopeful that the lube spans satisfactorily many guns and loads. ... felix

[kbstenberg]

Excuse me felix i miswrote. I did use Mineral oil.

[felix]

As a suggestion, use a heavier oil like ATF, and less of it. Playing with this stuff should be a challenge, and not lead(e) to a frustration state of mind. Keep it a fun thing to do. ... felix

[kelbro]

I just made a batch up as described in the first post. Used generic baby oil, castor oil and liquid lanolin from the hippie store, a bar of Ivory that had been in the Winnebago for 4 or 5 years grated up on a cheese grater, and 8 oz of unfiltered raw beeswax from the same hippie store. Followed the directions as written and the lube looks and feels great. Will see if it sweats or not soon.

[stainless1911]

What does that 1/2 hour of cooking and stirring actually do?

[geargnasher]

What does that 1/2 hour of cooking and stirring actually do?

Please read the last dozen posts.

Gear

[stainless1911]

Ok. I read the thread.

I added a little Kiwi black shoe polish for color, but got an "army" olive green instead of black or grey. lol. That will do.

How would I do a simple leak test in winter?

[nanuk]

I have just read this whole thread, and cut and pasted much relevant info

I must say a BIG thank you to all who contributed with knowledge, and practical testing

the depth of knowledge on this site cannot be overstated

I have one comment, as to substitutions: Peanut Oil
could this cause an Anaphylactic reaction to someone on the range who may be hyperallergic?

Just thinking out loud here.....

[geargnasher]

I know of people who are so allergic to peanuts that someone can open a Snickers bar 20 feet away and is will send them to the hospital. Most people who are that allergic always take precautions. You could always warn others who might be around if you wanted to be sure.

I've used peanut oil in place of the mineral oil and skipped the polymerization. It seems that if no petroleum oils/paraffins/waxes are present in the lube, the castor oil stays put with only the surfacant action of the stearate. While I only tried it in one gun, I'll say that it works, but the original formula worked better for me. I blame the varnishing characteristics of the fairly unrefined peanut oil for creating a gradual buildup in the bore which needed to be cleaned every 25-50 shots. YMMV.

Gear

[Wilsknife]

I want to use carnauba and pork fat(lard) in my lube. any recipes out there, or suggestions?

[nanuk]

As said before, after correct cooking, must the mineral oil and castor oil remain mixed if kept for further use? or must they be shaked or perhaps can we keep only the polymerized castor oil?
A question for Mr. Felix
Thanks
Gilles

Ideally, yes! That is the objective for a really stable lube. But who says the lube must be absolutely stable? The only stability required is that the lube does not fall apart before the ammo is shot, and for us, that is all that counts in that department. Best department is how it shoots in terms of velocity and accuracy desired per gun the lube is manufactured for. As always, it is hopeful that the lube spans satisfactorily many guns and loads. ... felix

I guess this is for Felix and Gear:

if Caster oil is the slickifier, and mineral oil is the sacrificial polymerizationalist, if the two don't stay mixed after cooking (as in, we do the oil first as per suggestions, and keep it ready for more lube to ease the process) can we not just remove the mineral oil that has separated out, and leave the polymerized Caster oil?

if I am understanding the process, the mineral oil would no longer be needed as its job is done. for those who pre cook their oils, that may offer a simple solution to the separation anxiety.

Can someone please clarify?

[nanuk]

ah... regardless, after some serious searching I found Gear's answer to the separation issue: Dr GearGnasher's Prescription for Separation Anxiety