Felix Lube - the Short Version

[felix]

Actually, both. Castor oil is such a powerful lubricant that other naturals pale by comparison. It's downfall is that it does not like to stick around especially when any type of petro (most sources, anyway) is involved. Therefore, enlarging (polymerizing) the castor fraction is appropriate. Some lubes will employ a castor wax (enlarging the oil by hydrogen bombardment), but that creates a lube viscosity which approaches that of a weld. Talk about a no-no for boolit lube in any situation. We use lanolin for the viscosity increase because it is mild mannered in comparison. ... felix

[keebo52]

Just made my first batch using stearic acid from the craft store instead of ivory soap. It dissolved immediately into the oils rather than taking forever like the soap. Is this OK? Sure made the process a lot easier if this stuff works.

[ghh3rd]

I just posted a question about the best way to remelt Felix Lube -- should have posted it here instead. I want to either be able to pour into lube sizer, or am ready to experiment with making tubes of lube. I'm microwaving on low for very long time, stirring in chunks, but it's too much tedious work.

[32-44]

In the famous Felix lube, is the use of stearic acid in lieu of sodium stearate is ok.
the sodium stearate is a binder and emulsifier but the stearic acid is given as a thickener.
I have seen this use in several recipes but what is Felix thinking about this use.
Thanks

[wiljen]

Felix and I had several discussions before I started using stearic acid instead of Sodium strearate.

The main difference in the two is the melting point of your finished product is slightly lower with stearic acid than with the sodium stearate. The other difference is that is it near impossible to get 100% sodium stearate. The reason Felix used ivory soap at the outset is that it was roughly 70% stearate and getting a more purified form made it prohibitively expensive.

I add a tablespoon of carnauba wax to my mix which has the effect of raising the melting point so it comes out roughly the same as Felix made with Ivory soap and no Carnauba wax.

[32-44]

Thanks Wiljen

[cptkeybrd]

Well guys after exhausting reading and experimenting the best additive I found for the lube is a little coconut oil for the smell, and almost all concotions work good. I have resigned myself to the best and cheapest solution for ME and that is White Label lube. It is cheap, it is reliable, and it works. I use three flavors, carnuba red, Bac and 50/50. Its fun to experiment with lube but when you want to get down to it, these guys make a affordable great lube. I use it in 380, 38, 357, 40 and 45, 7.62x54r you cant go wrong for 2 bucks. It is fun experimenting tho, I think I have enuf for a couple years of shootin. I did try a 40%x 40% x10% of Lee alox, Johnsons PW, and mineral spirits. and had good results with it. Carry on mates.

[deerslayer]

Ok this thread was five years in the making and I just read almost all of it and I am crosseyed right now.

But I have to ask what is the long version of felix lube as this thread is the short version.

[utk]

Has anybody actually pre-cooked the mineral and castor oils? Did you manage to get them mixed / polymerized?

I have tried 3 different oils with castor oil but they all separate into two layers.

The oils:

1) Liquid Paraffin, aka Baby Oil
2) Castrol mineral ATF (Castrol TQ Dexron III)
3) A PAO-oil (whatever that is. It's a synthetic oil - that's all I know)


I've followed Wiljens directions - 300F for minimum 1 hour. (Actually the ATF cooked for 2 hrs and the liquid paraffin for three full hours. Because when I found one hour wasn't enough, I cooked some more).
The only difference between our setups is that Wiljen used a pressure cooker while I used a SS pot.

[geargnasher]

UTK, many folks have settled on cooking up larger batches of "base" oil and measuring it out to make smaller batches of lube. I've personally never had an issue if I cooked them for more than 45 minutes at 300 F, don't know of anyone else who has, either. Did you stir constantly? That part is important, the oils need to keep moving the whole time.

Gear

[Edubya]

Has anybody actually pre-cooked the mineral and castor oils? Did you manage to get them mixed / polymerized?

I have tried 3 different oils with castor oil but they all separate into two layers.

The oils:

1) Liquid Paraffin, aka Baby Oil
2) Castrol mineral ATF (Castrol TQ Dexron III)
3) A PAO-oil (whatever that is. It's a synthetic oil - that's all I know)


I've followed Wiljens directions - 300F for minimum 1 hour. (Actually the ATF cooked for 2 hrs and the liquid paraffin for three full hours. Because when I found one hour wasn't enough, I cooked some more).
The only difference between our setups is that Wiljen used a pressure cooker while I used a SS pot.

The way that I read the instructions was to cook the mineral oil until it smoked real good then add the Castor oils. Is this what you have done or did you mix the two oils and then heat?

EW

[GabbyM]

Has anybody actually pre-cooked the mineral and castor oils? Did you manage to get them mixed / polymerized?

I have tried 3 different oils with castor oil but they all separate into two layers.

The oils:

1) Liquid Paraffin, aka Baby Oil
2) Castrol mineral ATF (Castrol TQ Dexron III)
3) A PAO-oil (whatever that is. It's a synthetic oil - that's all I know)


I've followed Wiljens directions - 300F for minimum 1 hour. (Actually the ATF cooked for 2 hrs and the liquid paraffin for three full hours. Because when I found one hour wasn't enough, I cooked some more).
The only difference between our setups is that Wiljen used a pressure cooker while I used a SS pot.

We have some confusion.
Castrol is a brand name. Castor oil listed in recipe is Castor oil. Which comes from the castor bean not Castrol Inc. I get my castor oil from one of the candle supply vendors.

When you see recipes using ATF they aren't trying to polymerize that oil. All ATF is synthetic and very resistant to polymerization. I can't make heads or tales of half the lube recipes posted. Especially when it comes to peoples substitutions of one ingredient for the another.

[geargnasher]

Gabby, I read UTK's post differently, maybe I'm missing something. He said he tried three different mineral oils (one possibly synthetic) to cook with the castor, and was still getting separation.

Also, NOT all atf is synthetic, in fact most is not. Dexron III, by SFI/API definition contains no "synthetic" oil bases at all. Synthetic is a marketing word in reality since there is no real definition or standard for synthetic base oils, only physical test requirements for certain certifications. I'm still at a loss as to the separation issues, I've used Dexron III before and it worked fine but I couldn't stand the smell.

Gear

[utk]

Thank you all for replying. I will try to answer all questions :

geargnasher: Yes, I stirred constantly for the first hour. Also switched power on/off to maintain a somewhat constant temperature.
For the 2:nd and 3:rd hour I only stirred every 5 to 10 minutes or so. Also the temp was a little higher, say 330F since I didn’t switch power on/off like 1:st hour

Edubya: I used a thermometer all the time, aiming at 300F. First I heated the mineral oil to 300F, THEN I added the castor oil and brought them back to 300F.

GabbyM:
I used vegetable Castor oil and Castrol (brand name) TQ Dexron III ATF.
MSDS says: two base oils + an additive. CAS numbers are given.

Further comments: The PAO oil is a synthetic “long chained oil”. I asked an oil company if they sold any PAO oils. They didn’t but he sent me an unmarked sample, probably from their lab.
I have used Castor oil I bought from a home-cosmetics company or a bottle I bought from a model-engine shop (they use methanol+castor for fuel).

I have a bottle of Baby Oil from Johnson & Johnson. It contains Liquid Paraffin + Isopropyl Palmitate. But I never used it. Instead I bought a quart bottle of Liquid Paraffin (White Oil) from the paint shop. Figured Isopropyl Palmitate wouldn’t make any difference.

[geargnasher]

Try the J&J baby oil, I KNOW it works, plus it smells good.

Gear

[utk]

Try the J&J baby oil, I KNOW it works, plus it smells good.

Gear

I think I will. Still have it. (However, my bottle says "Perfume free").
Otherwise I can't think of which oil to try. Most oils have additives in them (motor oils). The liquid paraffin is the purest oil I know of. Sewing machine oil perhaps, unless that just is another expensive packaging of LP. (Same s%&#t - different packaging).

[GabbyM]

I tried baby oil once and could not stand the smell. I used laxative type heavy mineral oil which was much better. I just cook it over a low gas flame and stir continuously with a chop stick. It burns the bamboo chop stick black. With half sauce pan full I have to cook for an hour. I grate Ivory soap with a kitchen grater. When successfully polymerized it is thick enough at room temp to not poor from a container. Not as hard as jello but about like tapioca pudding. Mine has always darkened a bit but if it's perfect this may not be the case.

I've never tried to polymerize ATF. If anyone has performed that feat I'd like to hear about it. I know it can be done with catalyst but I'd think it would be very hard on a stove top. I've always thought when people used ATF in these recipes they used it right from the can.

[geargnasher]

Gabby, it isn't the petroleum oil that we're trying to polymerize, it's the castor oil.

Due to the gelling you mentioned, I don't add the soap (or stearic acid, which I use now) until I'm ready to make a batch of lube. The cooked oils stay stored in an airtight bottle by themselves until needed.

Gear

[GabbyM]

Oh, I never made the connection. Only the castor gets polymerized.

I just today used up the last of my cooked oil mix with castor , mineral and Ivory soap.
Have some new oils from vendors. With a bag of stearic acid also. Trying to wrap my head around the reason to not add stearic acid until making the lube. How do you now you've polymerized the castor oil if you don't get it to set up into a gel? Making it all gel up into a blob gave me a warm fuzzy feeling. I know I failed to achieve good polymerization on one batch and ended up with sticky gooey lube that didn't stay in the groves to well. That was with half hour cook time with maybe a pint or more in a sauce pan. I cook an hour now and make darn sure it's done. Running the range hood so not to smoke up the house. Probably run this next batch of oil on the side burner of gas grill outside since its summer.

My sticky lube looked and felt fine until it was run through the sizer. Pressure of lube pump would separate out oils from wax and it does not go back in. At least that's all I could figure out was happening.

[geargnasher]

Oh, I never made the connection. Only the castor gets polymerized.

I just today used up the last of my cooked oil mix with castor , mineral and Ivory soap.
Have some new oils from vendors. With a bag of stearic acid also. Trying to wrap my head around the reason to not add stearic acid until making the lube. How do you now you've polymerized the castor oil if you don't get it to set up into a gel? Polymerization does not equal "gel", the fully cooked oils will be about the consistency of corn oil. You won't know right away if you've cooked them enough if you add soap/sodium stearate/stearic acid, because the oils will be less likely to separate until the lube is finished and loaded away in your cartridges for a few weeks/months, then the duds will tell you what happened. Making it all gel up into a blob gave me a warm fuzzy feeling. That warm fuzzy feeling doesn't make up for poor chemistry. I know I failed to achieve good polymerization on one batch and ended up with sticky gooey lube that didn't stay in the groves to well. probably not due to under-polymerization, more likely not enough beeswax or soap.That was with half hour cook time with maybe a pint or more in a sauce pan. I cook an hour now and make darn sure it's done. Running the range hood so not to smoke up the house. If it smokes that much you're running it too hot. Try to use a candy thermometer, not SWMBO'S, get your own at Wal-Mart. Probably run this next batch of oil on the side burner of gas grill outside since its summer.

My sticky lube looked and felt fine until it was run through the sizer. Pressure of lube pump would separate out oils from wax and it does not go back in. OIL, singular. It's the castor that wants to evacuate from the lube in the presence of mineral oils/paraffin, etc., that's the whole reason we must cook the oils together to fatten up the castor fraction. If you just use castor and NO petroleum, it won't sweat. At least that's all I could figure out was happening.

It might serve you well to go back over the last couple of pages of this thread, all this has been covered in great detail, especially the chemistry of the lube. Good luck!

Gear