My first Paper Patched bullet!

[303Guy]

Right - to hell with working (got halfway through and found I don't have any kero!). So.....

I know, the molds you are makeing recquire the gas check. If you get a chance, make a mold that does not. Perhaps a nose pour.

Like this?



Here it is patched. I twisted the tail. This time I did not wet the paper - instead I dipped it straight into the molten 'waxy-lube'. (It's tissue paper which is a tad fragile when wet!) Next time I will leave the base part unwaxed.



I will go get one of those cigarette rollers - the two shops I looked in did not have them.


Oh heck! I better walk to the nearest shop and get some kero!

[longbow]

303Guy:

I make very simple base pour push out moulds that work very well for paper patching, They are very easy to make with just a small lathe.

They can be either bored or cut with a D reamer. I find the larger calibers are easy enough to bore depending on the boolit shape but smaller like .30 cal are easier (for me anyway) to make a D reamer and cut the cavity with that.

I have attached a couple of photos of one of my push out moulds.

[303Guy]

thanks for that longbow. Somewhere along the line with all the happenings, I forgot about the D reamer. I did modify a drill bit to the shape I thought I wanted (It's not as easy as it looks - shaping and sharpening an ogive shaped spiral!) and this is the result;



Unfortunately, I was aiming for a large, throat fitting cast bullet - that was back in the 'dark ages' before I caught up with 19th centuary technology!
My last attempted mould specifically for PP was OK but I screwed up with the nose pour hole. This is the bullet;



The biggest difference - apart from the size - is that this mould has no chamfer at the base for g/c insertion.

I have been thinking of a sprew plate design. Another idea is a middle split mould (with sprew plate). The idea there is that the portion of the bullet that sits in the neck would be parallel and the forward section tapered. The two halves would 'spiggot' together. Removing the bullet would then be a matter of splitting the ould and removing the bullet from the base half somehow (quick pull with the fingers? Hot!) The thinking is that the base could be machined to give a perfect shape without sharp edges than can feather and so on. Well, there is a fella at 'work' who might be persuaded to make me this mould by pulling his guilt strings - I got the chop and he didn't! He's a good machinist but also very busy (these hyper-active people are like that - busy).

Mmmm...... you have given me an idea! Nose pour with sprew plate, split mould with base pushout. The nose section will always come off as it tapers.

In the meantime, what I intend doing is making a base plug from brass and using one of my existing moulds. (That I can get someone to do).

[303Guy]

This bullet, by the way, is the perfect size and shape I was aiming for. If I can re-work that nose pour hole - perhaps change it to a nose push out - I would be on my way! The nose ogive is 7.6mm dia, the nose taper starts at 7.7mm and tapers to the base at 8.05mm. This is the size I had determined fits the throat just right (and is the largest base to actually enter the throat and still fit the unsized neck). I used three wraps of tissue paper - dry and dipped into molten waxy-lube and rotated in fingers to squeeze off the excess. All this particular bullet has to do is chamber and extract without falling out the case.

Yooo Hooo! 19th centuary, here I come!

Ironically, my rifle has a 19th centuary design throat - for PP bullets!

[docone31]

Hmmm.
Looks like you are onto something there.
I have found, the gas check indent on my molds aids in my wrapping. It is not sharpened by sizeing.
I wonder, if you can somehow, make a push out, as both a base of the casting, and dead end, that has a ring that duplicates a gas check indent on the casting prior to push out.
My patches are hard when sized. The wax I use in sizeing just makes them shiney and seemingly water proof. At least a little. I wonder, also, if you are makeing a nose pour, why not make it a flat nose? Like for a tublar magazine.
That way, the sprue could be cut and make the nose, the casting could be pushed out.
Well, as I write this, I can see the design dynamics that might make it less than simple.
Keep plugging away! I am interested in seeing what develops. I bet no one has really done any research on paper patched loads with smokeless in almost a century.
For King and Country!
19th century, here we come!

[303Guy]

I wonder, if you can somehow, make a push out, as both a base of the casting, and dead end, that has a ring that duplicates a gas check indent on the casting prior to push out.

That would be quite easy, yes. That would cure the feathers and allow a base pour should I choose and would allow me to repare my botched mould. Mmmmm...... thanks for the idea!


To the 19th centuary!

[docone31]

I have had these thoughts stored up for years.
It is my pleasure, especially to see someone experimenting.
I wish I could.

[303Guy]

It has been my pleasure too! I shall do the best I can to try out these new ideas.


It occurs to me that it wouldn't take much to take whatever mould product I have and size them down to whatever diameter I need! Easier, I should think than trying to cast to a specific size. It's the base section that is hard to get right. I like the idea of a 'stepped base' .

[45nut]

A very interesting thread and it pleases me to no end to see the enthusiasm and determination not to mention the progress with the help of friends here.
Threads like these make everything so worthwhile and much easier to forget the tribulations and focus on the real reason we all come together.

[longbow]

I make the push out moulds because they are easy and I am lazy.

Just take a piece of round bar at 1 1/2" diameter, drill through 3/6" for .30 cal or 1/4" for .44 or larger. Bore or ream the cavity and nose form, make a sprue plate and simple handle then lap.

The bullets drop out without effort and are perfectly cylindrical. I have shot these modeled after the Lyman 314299 (no lube grooves of course) out of my .303 tumble lubed with good success. Even better for paper patching. I find that a body of about 0.304" wrapped to groove diameter suits my .303. Base pour and no need for gas check when paper patched.

I have also made boolits somewhat undersize then knurl to allow lubing. This also seems to work well for me with little in the way of leading problems.

I have shot my .44 Marlin with smooth boolits for many years and use a grease cookie like BP shooters, or paper patch, or knurl. All work.

I have made an insert for "boattail" base which didn't work well. Easy enough to cast with but accuracy wasn't there.

I have not yet tried Johnsons paste was but it is next on my list.

Also, I normally use COW filler for my .303 smooth boolit loads. So far accuracy seems quite good and leading is not a problem.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Thank you for your kind words, 45nut. It is indeed a pleasure to be among you folk (very advanced 19th centuary folk, I might add - back in the 21st centuary, they are still fooling around with jacketed stuff! )
You folk are rather clever too! (I mean that!)

I make the push out moulds because they are easy and I am lazy.

A man after my own heart!
Thanks for the info, longbow.
So, BT's don't work. I had contemplated that idea but now I will just stay with flat base or as docone31 has suggested, a stepped base like g/c bullets have. docone31 also suggested I try twisting the tail so I did. (I found that tissue paper is so thin and weak that I decided to 'strengthen' it using an idea from this thread, that being to use diluted white glue. I applied the glue to one side of the tissue paper and dried it then wrapped it. Here it is;



(I'm not sure whether it looks more like a toad 'stool' or an illegal substance!)

[docone31]

You have been forgeing ahead in unexplored territory for sure.
However, try this,
Size to .308, cut some lined notebook paper to 1" strips across the grain, cut these at 1 3/8" with opposing 45* cuts.
Get a cigarette roller, lay a soaking wet patch on the roller, set the prime casting on it with the pointed tip towards the nose, and the cut back towards the tail with the casting splitting the difference between the top and bottom of the patch. Roll it, take it out, twist the tail, let dry.
Use some Auto Wax, lightly and push it through a final sizer to the size you have found. My #1MKIII loves .314, snip the tail leaving just a nub covering the base. Load and be impressed!
Your molds are makeing great looking castings! They should do real well.
I use 44.4gns of Surplus 4895 with my loads.
I get black necks with less.
No square corners on the primers.

[longbow]

I don't paper patch much but when I do, I also twist the tails because I find it easier to get a tight finish to the wrap (there is that lazy thing again). Several folks here fold a lip instead of twisting and claim is is as easy and gives superior accuracy.

With large caliber boolits I can believe the boolit can be stood up on the lip to keep it in place but .30 cal would take a jig to hold the boolits vertical to keep weight on the base. Maybe a loading block would do? Mine doesn't.

As for the boattail thing. It didn't work for me and I have also attached Brent Danielson's web page with boattail paper patched boolit info (and other good stuff):

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessi...s/Page1187.htm

I thought I had some good info from Dan Theodore as well but can't find it.

Longbow

[pdawg_shooter]

Some time back I bought 1000 assorted 30cal "seconds". There were a number of 155gr SBT in the box. I found 2 wraps of 9#, a little lube, and a pas through a .314 die gave me great .303 practice rounds.

[303Guy]

Thanks docone31

I'll be heading out to find a cigarette roller today. Sizing my existing castings might take a little longer as I have to get someone to make me the die. In the meantime I am trying reinforcing the thin tissue paper with diluted white glue. (That's the twisted tail one, which I have already loaded but without trimming the tail). I will try the reinforced tissue without the tail on some g/c bullets and see if I can use them in my No4. It has a larger throat than my NoI. It's problem is it only has two grooves and I am not sure that will be enough to hold the boolit at full tilt! (I won't know until I try).

Thanks for the Brent Danielson's link longbow

Interesting to know why BT's don't work. Interesting to learn how to make them work! That wax sabot Brent tried is what I normally do! I actually wanted a BT to hold the sabot/wax wad and to eliminate rifling tails on plain cast. PP eliminates that anyway but a BT mould would eliminate base feathers. So many things to experiment with, so little time!

pdawg_shooter, I had thought of that but wasn't too sure of the cost benefits, but, you have given me an idea. My No.I has a mint barrel and would make a great long range rifle except 303 bullets aren't suitable. However, there are any number of 30cal J-word bullets suitable for long range! (It makes sense using that rifle for long range as it has a long barrel and is heavy and I believe it is accurate - I certainly was quite impressed with it using standard Hornaday and Speer bullets. 1 1/4 MOA I think - or was it less? mmmmm. No matter, when I missed it was always my fault!)

Say... on an aside, do you folks find 303 Brit case don't grow in length and last forever?

[303Guy]

Well, here is a 245gr bullet ready and finger wrapped in glue reinforce tissue paper. This one is intended for the larger throated No4.

[303Guy]

Well, the glue reinforced one failed! Here are some new efforts;


I'm still lubing with waxy-lube to seal and hold the bullet in place. The patched bullet gets seated just like that then dipped in the molten waxy-lube. When this lot of bullets are used up I will stop using this method - it's the only way I can get these oversize bullets to fit.

Loaded round being extracted from chamber;


That cord thing you see is my carry cord. It clips to my back-pack strap and leaves me hands free! It's great for 'elbow-itis'. The No4 has a factory made cord attatchment - where the rear sight used to be.

And last but not least, my paper cutting machine! (I'm still doing 'square' cuts here because of lack of cig paper roller).

[docone31]

What I do to make my cuts,
I took a piece of Venetian blind our "cats" broke off the window. The blind is slightly larger than 1" in width. After finding my length, and cutting it to the shape I wanted, I then cut the piece of blind so I could just set my paper in the blind and cut to shape. I usually cut about 200 patches at a time, so I can roll 50 and have more for later.
I marked my blind for what it is, it does both my .303, and .30s. They are the same length.
I like things simple. No glue, just water, roll em up, and size them.
The rolled patches fit in a 9mm cartridge tray. I usually toss the boxes, and keep the trays.

[pdawg_shooter]

Well, here is a 245gr bullet ready and finger wrapped in glue reinforce tissue paper. This one is intended for the larger throated No4.

NO GLUE! The patch MUST leave the bullet at the muzzle! If it sticks to the bullet accuracy will be non-existent.

[docone31]

I told him that also.
At least now he will know why.
As long as he is useing glue impregnated wraps, he will never know the accuracy we get from paper.
Once he gets the roller, and uses plain paper, we will hear the excitement all the way over to here!
He gets some real KUDOS for trying!
That will be some real heavy loading. Good candidate for BP also. The Enfield was originally a BP cartridge.