patched loads for 1895 marlin CB

[ebner glocken]

I'm wanting to find some loads for a 1895 Marlin CB ballard rifling. I've used cast and jacketed and been wanting to experment with paper patched. What is this I've been reading about patching with teflon tape? What dimension are you sizing to? I have no desire to use black powder. I've heard about using onion skin paper and do have a supply of that. Any info would be much appriecated. BTW I've been reading this site for quite some time but just became a memeber today......really enjoyed reading ya'lls chats!

[Ed Barrett]

Try this site.

http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/PPB.html

I have tried the teflon tape and had very poor results compared to airmail and banknote paper.

Also try a search on this board for paper patch.

[Dale53]

Paul Mathew's book, "The Paper Jacket" is very much worth a read. He has worked extensively with the Marlin lever gun in 45/70 and paper patched bullets. He is a serious deer hunter and just LOVES paper patched bullets. It is a Wolfe Publishing Book.

Dale53

[Bullshop]

This is from one of Walt Melanders PP designs. It has become my favorite for PP. Its fired at 100 yards from a Marlin pree micro groove 45/70 with apiture sight. I use 100% cotton fiber resume paper. I like about a 30/1 alloy or 7 to 8 BHN for game. I have taken grizzly bear, moose , and caribou with it. I have two recovered boolits from game and both are perfect clasic mushroom.
I like to run the patched boolit through a .460" die to press on the patch and also apply a film of lube to the entire surface and what ammounts to a lube wad that holds the tail folds together.
BIC/BS

[Four Fingers of Death]

A few aussies tried it a few years ago and it got writtn up in one of our not so commercial gunmags, who used to specialise it this sort of home cooked stuff (sadly they went the way of many things not totally up to the minute and are now out of print.

They used plumbers teflon tape and then sprayed the taped boolits with G96 polyurethane stock finish, which had a bit flex apparently.

Sounds ok. If you want to try it I would go to a speciality plumbers or hardward shop and pay an extra dollar or so for the trade tape. It is streets ahead to the normaql stuff you buy. The tape you use for sealing water plumbing comes in a white and pink dispenser and is light pink colour and the high pressure gas plumbing tape dispenser is yellow and white and the tape is light yellow. Leastways, thats how it is here. May be different in the states.

This stuff is amazing compared to the cheap junk. I think a dot of liquid glue might be the go to hold it in place or load it immediately, who knows, have a play wih it.

[Four Fingers of Death]

We aussies mostly use teflon coated lead bullets when we buy commercially cast. Most of the gunshops don't stock conventionally lubed commercial cast bullets as they have trouble selling them. I have been using teflon commercial cast pistol bullets for a few years now and can report that after using many thousands of them, I have had no trouble with them.

[Frank46]

Mick, what about this teflon coating??. Is this in addition to the regular lubing and then the coating is applied after that?. Curious minds want to know. Frank

[45 2.1]

This is from one of Walt Melanders PP designs. It has become my favorite for PP. Its fired at 100 yards from a Marlin pree micro groove 45/70 with apiture sight. I use 100% cotton fiber resume paper. I like about a 30/1 alloy or 7 to 8 BHN for game. I have taken grizzly bear, moose , and caribou with it. I have two recovered boolits from game and both are perfect clasic mushroom.
I like to run the patched boolit through a .460" die to press on the patch and also apply a film of lube to the entire surface and what ammounts to a lube wad that holds the tail folds together.
BIC/BS

Most of Walts 45 PP designs were done by Mike Nesbitt I think, they were meant for BP loads and have too small of body for smokeless loads. Try a lube groove boolit sized 452 or 454 then patched with 9 LB. onionskin. Your groups will improve quite a bit.

[Bullshop]

Most of Walts 45 PP designs were done by Mike Nesbitt I think, they were meant for BP loads and have too small of body for smokeless loads. Try a lube groove boolit sized 452 or 454 then patched with 9 LB. onionskin. Your groups will improve quite a bit.

Those squairs you see on my target are 1", and the load was 47gn WC-846
It may or may not have been designed for BP but as you can see does quite well with smokless!
This was fired from a stock Marlin with iron sights, I realy dont see much room for improvment there.
I suppose it is possible but I think I am already at the limit of my ability. I believe I have tried it in my Browning BPCR with BP and see no improvment, and the Browning has much better sights.
The design I am using is a grooved boolit with a body of about .451", but this design has a sholder at the base of the ogive that is .458". This sholder serves as an index point to start the patch, and also eliminates the sometimes problem of the bullet being pushed through the patch when being seated in a sized case. It also helps to start the patch into the rifling with out being damaged. I have tried the smoothed sided conventional designs and like this one much better. I also do as you have said and size down any grease groove rifle boolits to .451" and that can work good too. A Lee .451" push through does a good job of that. Still in all I will stand by my choice of the NEI design being the most user friendly, and for me most accurate.
BTW- I find it interesting to see on recovered boolits that the boolit shank is fully rifling engraved.
BIC/BS

[45 2.1]

No offense intended, but I was only saying that that is about the limit of BP shank sized PP will do with a smokeless load. Bore size patched up do alot better with smokeless. Yes, you will find full engraving on the shank all the time until your alloy gets too hard, but it has to slug up quite a ways to get there. None the less that load is accurate enough for any hunting you will do with an iron sighted rifle.

[Bullshop]

I guess I still dont get it !?! You seem to be saying I will get better than the accuracy I have shown, which I think is extreamly good from the equipment used if I size down grease groove rifle boolits to .451" and patch them for smokless. The thing I dont get is I am already shooting an as cast grooved boolit of .451" diameter but having an alignment ring of .458". Are we speaking of the same boolit. The NEI design I am speaking of is a grooved boolit but designed for patching.
Tell me how much better you think accuracy can be from a stock,accept for rear sight Marlin 45/70 at 100 yards. The target looks to be just bairley over an inch. I must be missing something here cuz I just dont see it.
BIC/BS

[45 2.1]

Daniel-
I'm shooting the same rifle you are, but don't use the bullet you do. I won't buy any of those PP molds due to the small shank. I shoot the Lyman 457191 cast of pure lead, sized to 0.454" and patched to o.461", lubed with 60% vaseline/40% beeswax over 30 gr. of SR4759 with the boolit seated to the top lube groove and crimped in lightly. Makes a nice express load and expands nicely past 300 yards, not that I would use it that far either. I have three of those rifles, wouldn't trade or sell one for anything, and they all shoot that load much better than what you posted. That bullet weight is probably not suitable where you live for most of the heavy game you see, but does very nicely for everything I see. Try it and see for yourself.

[onceabull]

45:2:1 & Bullshop: OK ,with 45's last post I can see on Castpics, and think I understand that he sizes down the as cast Lyman and then patches up to desired diam., Now Dan can I see the boolit you start with in NEI Online catalog,? I found some grease-groove boolits listed in like 452,454,and 456 nominal that look like cantidates for patching up as cast,but none seem to have what I think Walt
M.called a "DD" design which sounds to me like what you describe..IS your mould design no longer in their listing ???? Either technique sound like worth trying, can you two peek at what they have now,and advise ???? Thx, Onceabull

[45 2.1]

Onceabull-

I believe Dan is useing one of these: .45-410-PP #278 or .45-500-PP #279 on the link below.

http://www.neihandtools.com/catpages/mold_pg10.htm

I'm patching a pure lead 457191 sized 0.454" with two wraps of onionskin up to 0.461" diameter and loading it that way. I would advise useing a standard plain base mold of 300 to 410 gr weight cast very soft and sized down to over your bore diameter then patched back up to just slightly under throat diameter.

[Bullshop]

Ebner
Getting back to your question if you can find a copy of The Art Of Bullet Casting from Wolf publishing there was a bit of info on patching with teflon tape.

Onceabull
In 45 cal the NEI boolit I use is the 500gn # 279

45 2.1
God bless you brother you are a far better shot than I !!! If you have three old Marlins and you and all three of them can shoot cast/pp "way better" than 1" at 100 yards all four of you belong in the cast boolit hall of fame!
Will you be sending one of them targets in for the Waksupi postal challenge?
BIC/BS

[45 2.1]

Daniel-
I just wish I could see well enough anymore to do what I used to do. I do have a scope on one of them to compensate for bad seeing days. On my range, I have a two hour period where the light is right and I can see, but in glare or dim light, forget it.

[onceabull]

45:2:1 & Bullshop.. THx guys,I didn't interpret those scratchings on #278 and 279 to be grease grooves,but I'm still a handful of weeks short of the testaments alloted time..Any thoughts on the makers intented use for NEI #'s 322A,and 329,and how one of those might do if PP'ed up for the 45-70 or 458 et al..??? Onceabull

[45 2.1]

Any thoughts on the makers intented use for NEI #'s 322A,and 329,and how one of those might do if PP'ed up for the 45-70 or 458 et al..??? Onceabull

From looking at early ideal manual reprints, it shows early Sharps cartridges as having that size of boolit. I would use conventional molds with thinner driving bands and size them down in a LEE push threu sizer. That way you can still use the mold in the normal manner. It gives a much greater range of choice also. Whatever you patch for, match the patched boolit diameter to the throat of the rifle. You want the patch to seat and engrave lightly in the throat where it doesn't jump to the rifling. That will determine what size the prepatched boolit should be.

[Buckshot]

..................Lyman makes 2 truly excellent slugs for paper patching use in 45's, although possibly not in the 1895 Marlin. That's a path I haven't walked, but in various 45-70's, 45-90's, a Whitworth and Rigby Muzzle loader (naked and patched both) they're great.


At the time of this photo they only had the one, on the extreme right at 475grs and dropping at 452 - 3" and 2nd from the left patched. The newer one is a shorter copy at 450grs. Both cast of pure lead are superb performers when patched up.

.................Buckshot

[Buckshot]

...............That's some pretty fancy shooting there Dan!

................Buckshot