Rolling Block strenght

[Cap'n Morgan]

There was a discussion recently on the British Military forum:http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/8814 - regarding a blown up Danish RB:
http://www.pbase.com/halp/danerollblock

The rifle looks much worse than the Swedish one that caused the fatal accident, yet the shooter in this case didn't suffer seriously injury. Perhaps because the blow up was so powerful that the chamber blew completely, whereas the Swede *only* let go of the breach block and the receiver, turning the breach block into a deadly projectile.

[13Echo]

Cap"n the Danish failure was discussed at length on the Single Shot Rifle Forum previously. One thing that was remarked on was that there is no sign of black powder fouling anywhere on the rifle which leads one to think a heavy smokeless load did the dirty deed. Also the lack of case colors on the action remarked on the British Forum just means the colors have faded with age.

Jerry Liles

[NoZombies]

Cast iron was a poor choice of words. However, they WERE made from iron. Forged from iron ingots that were cast. They did not have what we consider steel before the 1880's or so. That is after the Swedish rolling blocks were made. The only steel before the 1880's was made in very small quantities with a high labor content. If you check Winchester books, they made the change over from iron to steel until the 1880's to 1890's when it became easily available. Even then, the "steel" was only 10% to 15% stronger than the iron it replaced. BTW, the reason for "damascus" barrels was that they were as strong as the early steel for a little less money. When the strength of steel continued to rise (and damascus could not), damascus was no longer made.

The Bessemer process for manufacturing steel was patented in 1855 and had been known as early as 1851 (though not my Bessemer, but he was a better marketer). Even the earliest Remington actions were made from "Bessemer new process steel" not wrought iron.

A modification and modernization of the Bessemer process is still used today to manufacture mild steel

[Harry O]

No Zombies: This is from the Remington Society of America



"The Remington catalog of 1875 is the first that lists barrels of decarbonized steel for rifle barrels. This is what we call mild steel today. This steel is soft like Damascus, but more ductile. You'll see a lot more repairable dents or gouges in these steels than in a more modern steel. The barrels were rolled from solid metal , without weld or seam. They were rolled to size bored out, then turned and ground proved with a heavy charge of powder and a solid slug of lead. "

"The April 1897 Remington Arms Co. catalogue introduced “Remington steel” barrels on the Remington Hammerless Doubles. Prior to that date shotguns were only offered with Damascus barrels of varying qualities by grade. Two types of steel barrels were introduced at that time: “Remington Steel” and “Ordnance Steel”"

"Remington Steel was the lower grade and was sold for the same price as the ordinary Damascus barrels on A-grade shotguns. It was made “in-house” at the Remington factory."

""Ordnance Steel" is a higher grade, and was especially recommended for heavy charges of nitro powder. The tensile strength of this steel is 110,000 lbs., and elastic limit 60,000 lbs., this being greatly in excess of any strain to which barrels are subjected with reasonable loads of nitro powders. It was available in some rifles and shotguns."



I did not know this until I looked as a response to your post. However, I have worked with Steel my entire professional career. I was the head of a Testing Lab in a steel manufacturing facility for 4+ years. During that time, I was provided a ferrule from a WW1 fighter airplane for testing. It was made from what was labeled "high strength steel" (the label was from WW1). I tested it and found that it was lower strength than the lowest strength steel that can be bought today. In addition, it had a lot more impurities than would be allowed today, particularly sulfer. (PS. "today" means from about 1975 to 1980). I know that steel has continued to increase since then in strength, ductility, and all the other desireable characteristics we use without thinking about it.

The early Remington rolling blocks were made from iron.

[NoZombies]

Harry O:

The "modern steel" from 1975-1980 would be vastly superior to the steel produced just 1 or 2 decades prior. The modernization of the Bessemer process occured in about 1968, when it was replaced in industry by Several processes, most notably the Linz-Donawitz process, which changed the gas blown through the melt from air, to oxygen, and changed the material lining the converter to a Basic (PH basic) refractory. it greatly reduces the number of voids, inclusions and impurities.

Damascus steel was used prior to "fluid" steel in shotgun barrels because it was "strong" and lightweight when used in barrels as apposed to wrought iron.

The use of Steel in barrels was adopted later than the use of steel in receivers, the reason for this was the required differences in the manufacturing processes for the barrels, whereas receivers were made with the same processes and equipment, whether steel or iron.

I know I've seen literature from the 1870's that stated the rolling blocks used Bessemer steel for the receivers, but I'll be damned if I can find it now. I suppose I could have imagined it, but I don't think I did.

[blysmelter]

All swedish-made RBs have a steel reciver, some very early ones has iron barrels mounted on US made recivers.

[BIG GUN]

I have a rolling block that shows 1876 on the receiver. When I bought it around 1961 it was like new. I new it was not chambered in 45-70 but I loaded up some lp rounds in that caliber and it shot just fine but expanded the base a bit. I have been using this on a fairly regular basis over the years just neck sizing so I didn't set back the base. The most accurate load consisted of a 405G G.C. wheel weight bullet over 40G of TCCI 8208 which was a short cut version of 4198. I got one hole groups with this at 100 yds. I am now using AA5744 for all my rifles in 45-70 and 40-65 Win. at original BP pressures per the Accurate obsolete Ctg. Section.

[New2daGame]

Hey ya'll have a question. I have 2 Swedish rollers (8x58RD)they were both sporterized and i wanna see about converting one to a 45/90 or 45/110. Is this possible and what all would i need to do? your answers are most welcome. I also wish i could find one in the military conversion before it was chopped.

[Dutchman]

For the best research on the strength of the 1889 Swedish rolling block read this:

Historical and Experimental Investigations of the Pressure Characteristics of the 8x58 Rimmed Danish Cartridge
http://dutchman.rebooty.com/GB8x58RD.html


Dutch

[Multigunner]

All I can add is that the british Admiralty bought several thousand "Remington single shot rifles" in 7mm caliber around 1915 or ship board use. They withdrew the rifles due to some not identified problem with the breech.

I'd figured it was a problem caused by use of British manufacture 7mm ammunition, they had produced ammo in this caliber for foreign sales before the war.

I found that information on Ian Skenerton's site long ago.

Cast Mild Steel can be casehardened much as cast iron.
The "White cast Irons" are in many cases much stronger than equivalent steels in compressive strength but not in shear strength, and don't recover from stretching.
White Cast iron was once used for Lee Enfield boltheads, these marked with an M meaning maleable cast iron/mild steel, Maleable Cast Iron has just enough carbon to be on the borderline of being considered a steel.

Cast steel can be very strong but is subject to defects in manufacture. As far as I know truly reliable cast steel firearms in high pressure chamberings weren't available till the 50's, with more than a few investment cast M-1 carbine clone receivers having serious headspace issues just the same.

Some bolt action rifles of the late 19th century used steel receivers first roughly cast then the casting drop forged before machining.

Metal fatique is another factor.
Nickel Steels were very resistent to metal fatique, and rifles with significant nickel content (2.76 % and up)are often still in fine shape a century or more later on. Steels without nickel fared less well.

[New2daGame]

I guess i should just ask Dutchman, what would you do? what cal (black powder) would you recomend? i thought i saw something about 45 110 and 45 90. there was also soemething about 40 65wcf. Help me guys i dont wanna get blown up and i wanna shoot long range with this thing.

[Multigunner]

I guess i should just ask Dutchman, what would you do? what cal (black powder) would you recomend? i thought i saw something about 45 110 and 45 90. there was also soemething about 40 65wcf. Help me guys i dont wanna get blown up and i wanna shoot long range with this thing.

If the rifle is strong enough, I've read that the .40-80 was the top long range cartridge of the late BP era, with match winning 1000 yard grouping tighter than many winning smokeless cartridge groups of later years.

[New2daGame]

Thanks for the info, i am still wanting to make it at least a 45-90 but i will look into the 40 cartridges. i have also attained some 8x56r hungarian ammo to reload for the 8x58 RB. We will have to see how it goes. anymore info on the chamberings would be great i am still looking at making it a 45-110. thanks for the help.

[Bullshop]

We have one of the kit barrels from Numrich Arms for a roller. It is full octi and I think 28" for 444 Marlin. I will ship it for a C note.
BIC/BS

[Don McDowell]

Bullshop is that barrel cut for the rotary extractor?


new2dagame, length of the bpcr cartridges is the biggest factor. Doing one of those rifle in 45-90 is surely possible, but will cost about 500 or more, depending on what all you have done at the time. You'll have to have a different forearm and ditching that military butt will make it much more pleasant to shoot.
Sticking with a cartridge in the 45 family case head will also keep from having to find a new blank extractor, those rotars are sometimes hard to find.
I built the wife a 40-65 off of one of those 8x58 swedes/dane rollers.

[yarro]

One note on the 8x58R Danish is that they are not safe to shoot ammo loaded for the Krag, which is much stronger, in them. They loaded special reduced charge loads for use in the Rolling Blocks, which were retained as a war reserve. This is why the 8mm Rolling Blocks are in such nice shape. Most never saw the outside world until they were surplused. Most rifles were cut down before being sold to the public. Un-mucked with rifles in 8mm are as expensive over there as here according to my friends in Sweden although most are in very nice shape.

-yarro

[GARYC]

Hello all. I am considering buying a Swedish 1867/74. Reading some of the discussion on this forum is both helpful and a real eye-opener.

For reasons of economy more than any other, I am thinking of having the RB action rebarreled in a more common, easy obtainable caliber. 30-30 Win seems like a good candidate, as I think I prefer a true "rifle" caliber over a "pistol" caliber. Although, being an admirer of the .41mag and having a lot of brass for the same, I have entertained the possibility.

Strength of the RB action is of real concern to me! I have NO desire to reload, using BLACK POWDER. I have NO desire to achieve abnormally high velocities. I would like to build a SAFE, ACCURATE, FUN TO SHOOT RB!

With the above in mind, I was wandering; will the use of a NEW BARREL, made of MODERN STEEL add some margin of safety to a century plus gun! Would FACTORY AMMO or "RELOADED TO FACTORY SPECS" AMMO IN ONE OF THE AFORE MENTIONED CALIBERS HAVE AN IMPROVED MARGIN OF SAFETY?

What are your thoughts?

GARYC

[Don McDowell]

Gary by the time you hunt down one of the Scandanavian hardened rollers, or find one of the remington smokeless actions, then buy the barrel and go to all the business of having it fitted and blued, you might just be better off to find one of the Uberti rollers in 30-30. Or just find a good 7x57 Remington and be done with it.

[trevj]

Hi guys, I was wondering how strong the swedish 1867 rolling block rifles are? Will they handle 50-90, 45-90, 45-100 with blackpowder or equivelent smokeless loads? I am thinking of getting one of these rifles in bad shape and rebarreling it.

Buy one in good shape and rebarrel it. You will get a better result, cheaper.

Buying one in bad shape is a mugs game. It'll cost you more to get a decent gun that way, because you will have to rebuild the bad shape gun into a good shape gun, before you will want it near your face going off.

Cheers
Trev

[Clark]

My Remington Rolling block #5 type 1905 or 1910 is big.
My Rolling block #4 made in 1896 is small.

The #5 has 500% of the metal in cross section of the #4

How strong is a rolling block?
How long is a string?