loading for the 43 Mauser/ 11mm Mauser

[doug strong]

I have 20 Bertram cases and I think I will start tomorrow with 60gr of Hodgdon's 777 over a 370gr blue lubed bullet. In order to fill the case I will use a couple grains of polyfill. How does that sound as a starting place?

I've done more reading and playing around a bit.

By 60 gr I meant by volume not by weight. I tried out filling cases and found out several things.
1. 60 grains by weight fills the cartridge too full to seat the boolit without serious compression which hodgden recommends against.
2. 60 grains by volume leaves a lot of air space which most sources I've read recommend against.
3. 50 grains by weight seems about right to come to the bottom of the seated boolit.
4. Hodgdon's recommends against the polyfill.

Here is what I am now thinking.

10 loaded with 60 grains (45 by weight) by volume with my 384 g boolet no filler
and
10 loaded with 50 grains by weight (almost 70 by volume) with my 384 g boolet no filler

Take them to the range and see what happens.

Thoughts?

[doug strong]

I went to the range today and had a blast!
IN the end I loaded my 384g boolit with 55 grains of 777 ffg.

That was a delight to shoot!

I am going to start loading again now.

[StrawHat]

Somewhere in my pile of magazines is an article on loading the 43 Mauser. Written by Ross Seyfried so it was probably in either Hnadloader or Rifle magazine about 8 or 10 years ago. When I find it I'll reference the issue so it can be read.

Okay, I am a bit slow when it comes to finding and posting stuff. But here is the article I mentioned.


http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazin...d=750&magid=56

(Sorry for the delay.)

[closey]

Thanks for the link SH.

Closey

[danyboy]

Morgan,

Appreciate the info on using reformed .348 brass.

Was starting to think about that option upon finding out BELL is no longer producing their 11mm "A" base brass, and that more than one person has raised cautions on using the Bertram 11.15x60R stuff, apparently it is reported to be quite brittle and also prone to failing at the rim area.

Talked to the people at Buffalo, and they provide .43 Mauser cases made from .348 brass, but he didn't indicate if the head area was swaged down, or machined. So the question I have is, does anone know, and/or, has anyone tried their reformed cases?

After seeing the kind of damage a failed rim causes with just a light load, I want to be reasonably sure I've got the best cases possible before I put this carefully restored beastie close to my face again.

Some have suggested using 45-70 brass, but given the relative dimensions of rim and head diameters, I would suspect the 45-120 case would be a better "fit", would only need an 0.011" reduction in rim diameter, and a fair chunk trimmed off the length after forming, but with the head diameter being 0.10 smaller, not too sure if that would be a problem.

Anyone have any thoughts on going this way?

Steve

Dug up this old topic. I have been shooting Buffalo arm reformed 348 brass for my mauser 71/84 (43) for years and they are still good. 12 gr.Unique behind cotton puff, Lyman446110 WW cold water dropped bullet sized with Lyman lubriser. I bought another mauser front sight from Brownell (if I recall it was meant for mauser 98K) cause the original front sight was for 200 meters .
I since then, adapted a Bsquare scope mount to the rear sight and been using a long eye relief scope cause my eyesight isn't quite as good as it used to be.
I pulled bullet out of an original CIL cartridge and found 21 grains of unknown powder (small circles with a little hole in the middle). Dupont (IMR) couldn't identify this powder. Bullet was 385gr. I have about 3 boxex left of this ammo and don't plan on shooting it.
Danyboy

[joebrotch]

I make my 43 mauser brass out of 45-90, turn rims down .010" then run a .460 rod down to inside basse till it swells to .513" tnen size in 43 mauser die and your ready to go, I cast bullets in the rcbs 44-370 FN mold 20-1 to .446" dia.

23-25 grains of sr4759 is about 1200-1300 FPS.

[sgtlbi]

hello, after reading everyones threads I just had to dig out my71/84 from 1888 and some ammo I haven't seen in 40 years and give it a try. Ammo was ten round blue pack produced feb 17 1888. Picked out three random rounds from box and all three fired as new! did however have two cracked cases out of the three rounds.just won a bid for some imperial and some made from 45/90 cases that are loaded can't wait til they get here.

[uscra112]

I too have a 71/84 that is so clean that I can believe it may never have been fired once it left the factory. Honestly, I've been reluctant to deflower it, so everything I say here is research, not actual experience.

This is important ! The neck of my chamber is small, so small that a .446" cast boolit in HDS brass makes a cartridge that will not fit. I have a boxful of original Mauser rounds, paper patched, with a dead-soft boolit, and they do fit quite nicely. Looking at one right now, the diameter over the patch is .4405". Almost 6 thou smaller than the nominal size of .446" which is quoted for greasy boolits cast by moulds intended for the .43 Mauser.

Paul Matthews pointed out that this tight-neck practice was also used in the USA during the paper-patched boolit era. The intent was that the small boolit would enter the throat of a fouled gun, and obturate as necessary to fill the grooves on firing.

Be aware of this as you start setting up your ammunition. It's very hard to tell if you've got a tight neck in a bolt rifle, unless you hand-chamber to test. And as we know it ain't good for pressures if you've press-fitted the round into the chamber.

Paper patching a pure lead boolit cast at .430" or so may be a good place to start. I will do that someday, I suppose. For now she just sits in the safe.

[Texinoz]

If the rifle is the 71/84 with tube mag it should be true .446 groove diameter and boolits that size should work well. The original single shot model 71's had deeper grooves more like .452 and the largest boolit diameter that will chamber should be used (up to .452). With mine, .450 is the limit without inside neck turning my Bertram brass. With 30:1 Pb/Sn this works well with Lyman 446110 340gn or sized RCBS 44-370 Sharps mold - even better is a 450gn flat nose loverin boolit (Lyman mold 451114). I don't try paper patching - even though that is the "correct" original load.

[Chicken Thief]

Here's a case drawing


The problem might be thick walled brass?
The boolit spec. is 11,40mm ~ .448"
Neck 11,85mm ~ .466"

[JMtoolman]

The 43 Mauser is a great hunting round. I killed a large cow moose with one of my rifles a few weeks ago. ( see the hunt forum) Took her with a paper patch bullet at 238 yards. The toolman.

[looseprojectile]

these old threads come back once in a while.
I have one of the nearly new 71/84 rifles.
My best shooting loads turned out to be the RCBS 43 Spanish boolit paper patched up to .446/.447". Cast of really soft lead. I just put a dab of Rooster Jacket on em. I did not see that those shot really good till my partner showed me the groups. Did not use a wad or filler and used just over twenty grains of SR4759. Not going to tell you how small the groups were as you would think it was BS.
I still have some of them loaded and will give them another go soon. These I will document. I mostly shoot the grease groove RCBS Boolit.
Will probably try some with filler and wads too.
I have mostly Dominion brass [about 140] and they will last me a lifetime.
I pulled a boolit from one of the CIL/Dominion rounds and it is definately 4759 powder. The same weight I use. Those CIL cartridges are very accurate.

Life is good

[danyboy]

Tried something new. Sized .446 Lee cast boolit down to .435 and paper patched (3 wraps of computer paper) up to .448". Didn't size the cases, just decapped them, expanded them a little with Lee universal expanding die, charged with 13, 13.5 14gr of unique. Results: precise with 13.5gr at 50 yards and 100 yards (1½" at 50 and about 2½" at 100 yards). Also inserted a tad of cotton puff over the powder. Outside neck measure .367". A little hard to chamber but old rifle could take it. Easy to clean. A scope makes all the difference in the world (Mauser 98BSquare mount adapted at the rear sight. Had to drill the hole a little bigger and use a stove bolt to secure the mount. Counter screw helped keep the mount solid). Of course, downsizing bullets from .446" to .435" took a little energy.
Black powder would probably be better but never handloaded catridges with it and not too sure about cleaning the gun well afterwards. I got a can of Pyrodex 'P', may give it a try one of those days.
Love this gun and never get fed up shooting it.

[leadman]

I'm rereading some of my old American Rifleman magazine and am the 1958 year. There are advertisements that are selling new unfired 71/84 rifles. IIRC the prices run from $24.95 to about $50.
I need to get mine out again and play some more. The Lee 300gr 45cal pistol boolit sized to .450" was shooting very well. I have been thinking of paper patching the Lee 44cal 310gr. I have a mold that drops around .436" so it may work.

[Wdog01]

Hello, there are lot of original manufacturer drawings in one interesting book (D.Storz: German Military Rifles vol.1). Original dia of lead bullet was 11,0mm (0.433) plus paper-patch. The original barrel size was 11,0/11,6mm (0.433/0.457). Tolerance was 0,05mm (0.002) down. The original chamber dia was 11,95mm (0.470). My BB brass cases have thickness of 0.010. So you can use about 0.433 bullets with paper-patch or lets say from .0445 to 0.452 dia lead bullets lubricated to grooves or under - without paper-patch. Question are dies, with .452 bullet you have to use different for expanding and seating, for ex. 45ACP ones. Original bullet weight was 400gr. Bye Ales

[Wdog01]

Hello, maybe after some time I can refresh this topis with some experiences and measuring.

I use bullets from Lee 457-400 mould, sized to .542. Lubricated is about 400gr., alloy with linotype. I format brass with 11mm Mauser FL die, expand and seat with 45 ACP dies, the format with 45 ACP die. Because of wide expanding for .452 bullet. Total lenght shouldn´t be over 2.913 because of bullet shape. Original brass 11mm Mauser made by BB.

I measured v0=1460fps from original M1971 rifle, with the load 30g. of ACC5744. Accurate at 50y. This is maximal load for me, the load comparable with former original cartridge power is about 29g. of ACC5744.

What is important and maybe funny ... I put data to ballistic calculator, the result: original military sights are balanced to hit zero at 295y. (270m). With my load, on 50y. range, the target is hit by 14 inch. upper, or at 100y. by 23 inch. upper. Consider it. Bye Ales

[danyboy]

'use bullets from Lee 457-400 mould, sized to .542'.
You probably meant 'sized to '452"' NOT '.542"' !

[Wdog01]

Of course, you are right, sized to .452, sorry.

[cpileri]

re-post:

Load information:
The loading information I use for the 11 mm is as follows: What I am giving you here are the loads I have found work best to this point. Please understand with no baseline I kissed many toads before comming up with a princess. All loads use a wax paper cover wad between the cushion wad and bullet base.
Black Powder, goex FFg
Case Length: 2.320
Powder: 72 gr
Wads 1 .060 or 2 .030 fiber
Bullet Lyman 436 gr seated .500 (measured from case top to bullet top. .120 compresson)
RCBS 396 gr seated .550
Lube: 50/50 melted mix of Thompson pruple stuff and Thompson patch lube.

Pyrodex loads, use pyrodex RS
Case lentgth: 2.320
Powder: 50 grains
Wads: 1 .060 or 2 .030 fiber
Primer: CCI LR
Bullet seat: LYMAN 346 GR seated .500 (measured case top to bullet top.)
RCBS 396 GR seated .550
Lube: 50/50 melted mix of Thompson purple stuff and Thompson patch lube.

I hope this base line may help others starting from scratch. The trajectory pretty well matches the sights (at least with my gun). The muzzle velocity is right around 1400 feet per second plus or minus 20 fps per second and fouling is medium. I am still trying to figure out how you site at 300 meters.
Terry

__________________________________________________ ____
This load was developed for shooting at 300 meters and above:
470 gn GG bullet with 3% tin in pure lead (NO wheelweights).
Sized to 0.446" (slug your bore and size accordingly).
Bullet inserted in case so that case mouth is on front grease groove.
In my M71, this is about 1 mm off the lands. Going closer makes problems in military competitions where you are not allowed to clean between shots!
This is the first step, as you need to establish the seating depth BEFORE deciding on the powder charge.
In case: powder, shake down powder by tapping the case on the bench, two wads from milk carton, 0.5 cc of lube from a medical syringe, wad, bullet.
The amount of lube will vary according to mix and whether you want to shoot military competitions without cleaning between shots. Powder: Swiss No. 4 to fill space under bullet/wad/lube/wads stack. Empirically: 67 gns. No compression, as that would be yet another variable, and reports say that Swiss powder doesn't like it!
It too me quite some time to establish this load, so if you work up a satisfactory load with BP for the 350 gn bullet I would be grateful if you would post it here, to save me some work! My estimate is that, with the shorter bullet, about 75 gn will fill the space without compression. That combination should produce a significantly higher muzzle velocity, and may well perform better at 100 meters, than my load, which is intended for long-range shooting.
____________________________________________
12g trail boss with the 385 and 15g with 340g bullet.
____________________________________________
Some load data for the 43 Mauser. Some will be from the 1871 Single shot, and others from a M71/84. I'm not going to bother saying which is which as it makes no difference as far as the charge goes. My M71 has a .451" groove so any of the 45 cal boolits shown are mainly from the M71. All brass is Bertram and WLR primers were used.


Lee 452-190SWC
8.0 Red Dot .......: 1060
10.0 Unique .......: 1100

Lyman 292gr:
12.0 Unique........: 1160
25.0 2400 .........: 1490*
27.0 H4198 + Dacron: 1310

Lee 457-340F:
12.0 Unique........: 1070*
16.0 Blue Dot......: 1180
21.0 2400..........: 1370
25.0 2400..........: 1440
25.0 H4227 + Dacron: 1440*
22.0 SR4759........: 1220


Lyman 340gr FNPB, 446110
37.0 Surp 4895 + Dacron: 1223
39.0 Surp 4895 + Darcon: 1270
45.0 Surp WC852 + SS...: 1333
27.0 XMR5744 + Dacron..: 1300
24.0 SR4759 + Dacron...: 1320

RCBS 43-370 FNPB
16.0 Unique ..........: 1260*
42.0 Surp WC852 + SS..: 1260*
22.0 SR4759 ..........: 1180
33.0 Surp 4895 .......: 1060

Lyman 385gr RNPB
16.0 SR7625........: 1200
28.0 XMR5744+Dacron: 1470
30.0 XMR5744+Dacron: 1535*
27.0 H4198 + Dacron: 1300*
33.0 AA2495 + Dacron: 1310
37.0 Surp 4895 + Dacron: 1350
36.0 Surp WC846 + Dacron: 1460
40.0 Surp WC852 + Dacron: 1233*
42.0 Surp WC852 + Dacron: 1303*

Lee 457-405F (not HB)
24.0 XMR5744 + Dacron: 1245
27.0 H4198 + Dacron..: 1270*
33.0 AA2495 + Dacron.: 1312
33.0 Surp4895 + Dacron: 1180

Lyman 475 gr FNPB (Whitworth bullet)
33.0 Surp 4895 + Dacron: 1150
35.0 Surp 4895 + Dacron: 1275*
40.0 Surp WC852 + Dacron: 1225*

The loads with the (*) indicate superb accuracy at 50 yards. This is less than, or not very much more than an inch. Those with the SS denote use of Super Sam, which is a ground polyethelene shot buffer.
43 Mauser
LoadID 8254
Bullet
Buffalo Bullet Lead
BulletWeight
370 grs
Powder
IMR 4198
PowderWeight
30 grs
Primer
LR
Brass Make
Bertram
Barrel Length
24 (inches)
C.O.L
(inches)
Velocity
1200 fps
Group
(inches by 3 shot at 100 yds)
Submitted Date
8/28/2003 11:50:00 AM
Submitted By

Gun Info

Comment
3-4 gr polyester filler over powder
Smokeless can be safely used in most blackpowder cartridge arms providing you know what your maximum pressures are. For instance, 35 grains of IMR4895 with a 350 grain lead bullet would generate very similar pressures (maybe a tad higher) to the same load using 80 grains of blackpowder. What must be remembered is that these oldies use soft lead bullets, even the hardest lead bullets are only 1 fourth the hardnest of a jacketed bullet. So a lead bullet requires much less force to push down the barrel, hence lower pressures. If you wanted to use smokeless powder in a very large case such as the 577/450, depending on the type of powder and charge you will probably need a filler. The filler is designed to keep the powder charge at the bottom of the case, providing uniform ignition and pressures. Without the filler the powder will settle lengthwise inside the case, and when the primer is struck the flame will shoot over the top of the powder, not directly into it, causing erratic ignition and pressure spikes. When using smokeless in a BPCR (blackpowder cartridge rifle) there are some things to be remembered. You need to use a bullet that is groove diameter or a couple thousanths over. With blackpowder, undersized bullets can be used because when black ignites it SLAMS HARD into the base of the bullet, causing it to "bump up" to proper groove diameter. Smokeless powder on the other hand is progressive burning, and will not slam into the bullet base with as hard of force, and if an undersized bullet it used the hot gases from the burning powder may sneak past the bullet, which usually melts the lead. This is called gas cutting. Also, with smokeless you need to use a bullet lube designed for smokeless loads, these lubes are often much harder than blackpowder lube. Lee Liquid alox is great stuff to use on lead bullets loaded with smokeless. As for choosing a type of smokeless to use in your rifle, you'll find that powder such as 4350, 3031, 4895 and 4198 work well in these large capacity cases. These powders are also high in volume, being that each granule is quite large, taking up more space inside the case, lessening the need for a filler.

For blackpowder (BP). Some say loading with BP is safer, others say it is just as dangerous or even more dangerous than loading with smokeless. There's a few extra steps involved when using BP. The neat thing about BP is that it is nearly impossible to fit enough inside a case to make it a dangerous load. Take the 43 Mauser for example. The military load called for a 77 grain charge of a FFg type BP. 77 grains nearly fills it to the top, and even when using a drop tube to charge the case, you'll find you can only put about a total of 85 or so grains of powder before you can't put anymore in. Even 85 grains is not a dangerous load, and to many 45-110 and 45-120 Sharps shooters this would be considered a mild load.
There are different grades of BP. Fg, is used for large bore muskets and cannons, FFg is used more for blackpowder cartridge arms, FFFg is mainly used in BP pistols, and I believe FFFFg is used strictly as flash pan powder in flintlocks. The more F's, the smaller the grain size and the faster the burn rate and the higher the pressures. You'll also find that the finer grades shoot dirtier (though alot of that depends on techniques in loading).

One thing that is a must when charging black into a case is what's called a drop tube. This is a simple tube, usually made of aluminum or even copper, that is usually around 25 or even 30 inches in length with a funnel at the top. A drop tube is designed to slowly charge the case with your BP, allowing each grain to "settle" before another grain settles ontop of it, the result is a powder charge that is more dense and much more uniform, this also removes more airspace between the granules. As for measuring blackpowder, because of how black likes to settle if vibrated, the volume method is what's been the main way of measuring it for many years. Personally I just weigh my powder. However the numbers will be different from using the volume method. My powder measure set to 77 grains of FFg powder will actually drop a charge into a pan that weighs in at 88 grains on the scale. I know for a fact the load is not 88 grains because 88 grains won't fit into the case i'm loading for, but the number you get on your scale can still be used as a refference to insure that each charge weighs the same. After weighing my charge I put the case under the end of the drop tube, put my funnel at the top, and slowly pour in the powder. After that I take each charged case and while holding it firmly, give it a few taps with a steel punch just to help settle the powder into the case that much more, if you watch the powder while tapping it will move down into the case further, as it's settling itself. After I've charged and tapped my loaded shells I like to wad them. Wads are essentially designed to protect the base of the bullet. As said earlier BP slams into the base of bullets, sometimes even deforming them causing inconsistant accuracy. So a wad is placed between the two, it sort of acts like a copper gas check, in that is helps protect the base of the bullet from the impact as well as the extreme heat of the burning powder. Most people use commercially bought "vegetable fiber" wads, they come in varrying thicknesses, though most will agree that wads with a minimum thickness of .080 is what's needed to give adequate protection. I make my own wads from thin but very tough cardpaper, 4 of them compressed together very tightly will mike to about .080 or a little thicker in the caliper. On the other hand you'll find some rifles shoot better without them. It's really trial and error with loading BP, or just reloading in general. To cut my wads I use the sharp mouth of a .45ACP and a light tap of the hammer cuts them out. A 45 cal wad fits perfectly into the neck of a .43 Mauser case.

After the wad you can choose to seat your bullet or add whats called a "grease cookie". The grease cookie is either a veggie wad soaked in a soft beeswax or crisco type lube or just a pea sized pinch of the lube itself put into the case mouth before seating the bullet. Which brings me to bullet lubes for BP. You HAVE to use a bullet lube when shooting BP. Modern smokeless powder lubes (hard lubes) will not work very well. The lube not only keeps the bullet from leading up the bore, it's main purpose is to keep the hard and crusty blackpowder fouling soft, allowing the next fired bullet to "scrape out" the fouling from the previous shot. As you know, BP shoots very dirty. After just a dozen shots or usually less, the bore will become so encrusted with BP fouling that it becomes very hard for the bullet to pass down the dirty bore. So that's the purpose of the lube. Alot of competition shoots do what's called "swabbing" between shots. In that they take a tight fitting patch on the proper diameter jag and push the patch down the bore after each shot to remove the fouling. One trick to know if your using enough lube is to see how easily the patch goes down the bore. If it feels crusty or rough in spots at all, your not using enough lube. Another trick is to check the muzzle, if enough lube is still on the bullet by the time it's reached the end of the barrel, you will see what's called a "lube star" on the mouth of the barrel. So you can swab between shots, or use a blow tube. Say you want to use a blow tube for your Martini. You'd buy a .577/450 blow tube which is simply the .577 shell that's had the primer pocket drilled out and a short clear plastic tube attatched to it. You stick the shell into the rifle, and blow on the tube. The moisture from your breath will be soaked up immediently by the BP fouling, which quickly becomes soft and mushy, making a patch easy to push down the bore. So some shooters do a combination of both, blow, then swab the bore. Now what iv'e said above about fouling is what most competition shoots will tell you do to, or is what they do.
Casual shooters like you or me just go the range, load up our rifles, and shoot them until the bore needs a good swabbing. How much lube your using, the type of powder, and powder compression all have a deciding factor on how dirty BP shoots. You'll find Goex shoots actually quite clean when properly compressed. Compression simply squeezes the granules even tighter together, making one very solid and uniform powder column, which burns much more thoroughly, making it burn cleaner. So if charged correctly, compressed adequetly, and enough lube is used, there's no reason why your BP loads should shoot dirty. In fact if your lucky I've seen some fellows who have shot BP loads all day through their rifles with no fouling issues to speak of. You just have to experiement. There's really no limit to how much compression you can do, because eventually enough will bulge the case. I compress my powder down about a quarter inch, aka .250 on the caliper, this is about the most common amount of compression used. One last thing, before seating your bullets you will want to flare the case mouth or during seating the sharp case mouth will more than likely shave lead off the base off the bullet, which is a killer for accuracy. Lee sells a universal case expanding die for like $11, and it works up to 45 caliber.

Well it took me over an hour to type this. But always glad to help out a fellow shooter. All the information I posted is correct to the best of my knowledge, everything I learned about BP shooting and loading came from doing about 2 months worth of reading over at the cast boolits forum. Great bunch of guys over there, most of them have been doing this kind of thing for 30 years or more. http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com They also have a neat section on paper patching, which I am still mastering, but it's actually quite easy once you get it down. And it sure is a fun and useful technique to know


(I compiled this, none is my original work. C-)

[35wailin]

I have aquired an 1871 Mauser Carbine that was owned by my great grandfather. That being said, I loaded 50 rounds using a 360gr bullet and 77gr FFg. I fired a few rounds and found the recoil was less than my 35 Whelen with 250 grbullets. I heard recently that there was a lighter load for the carbines and the 77 gr load was for the full length rifles. Has anyone heard this abd if true, what was the carbine load?