loading for the 43 Mauser/ 11mm Mauser

[arclight]

There's definitely something fun about shooting a gun made before my Grandpa was alive.

I was out at the Yucca Valley Gun Club 2 weekends ago, and the older fellow running the range said it was the oldest gun anyone had ever brought to the range, as far as he could remember.

I hit a few of the 150 yard gongs with it too, so I can't complain.

Arclight

[Buckshot]

There's definitely something fun about shooting a gun made before my Grandpa was alive.

I was out at the Yucca Valley Gun Club 2 weekends ago, and the older fellow running the range said it was the oldest gun anyone had ever brought to the range, as far as he could remember.

I hit a few of the 150 yard gongs with it too, so I can't complain.

Arclight

.............You ought to try our range. It's a LOT closer then Jucca Balley .

.............Buckshot

[TAWILDCATT]

I made a cartridge out of 45/70[case]chuck case in lathe and made swipe with file
on rim works fine.Lee sells the dies for 41 swiss and 43 mauser.if you make the cases out of 348 and expand neck you had better anneal the brass.
for those doing this kind of operation I bought a minicut off saw from harbor tool for $29.has 2" steel blade and builtin vise.cuts like butter.

[Southwestern Canuck]

To all;

The following may look like too much info, but if it stops just one more old one from coming apart on somebody else, it is well worth it.

Been doing some in-depth research into the case failures I experienced that has forced me to me to rebuild my rifle, and getting well into the metallurgy of these "suspect" cases, with some confirmations about some "Dominion" headstamped cases really being counterfeits, and a reasonably consistent way to identify the "bad" ones (at least, consistent within the cases I have on hand here).

The cases to watch out for can only be identified by carefully examining the base for the following telltales (use a jeweler's eye loop, or a similar magnifier). These "counterfeit" cases are made from a casting that is then "drawn" up to make the case body, which is then "bumped" back a bit to form the head/rim junction, and are reportedly coming out of the mid-east somewhere (apparently cost less than 10 cents apiece to make, and the typically sell for anywhere from $1 to $2 each at gun shows, where they have been showing up, so watch out for "new in the box unfired 43 Mauser cases").

1. Look for "distortions" around the primer pocket and the rim. These distortions look somewhat like a bubbly surface that is classic (representative) of a cast surface.

2. Look at the rim/head junction carefully. On the counterfeit cases the rims were turned to even them out and cut them to the right diameter. On many of these cases, the cutter also scored the side of the case just above the rim, but not all the way around, and, that appears to have been be done to "true up" the case body with the head (make it more concentric).

3. Although these cases are an "A" base like the original ones made by Mauser and subsequently by CIL/Dominion (and have virtually identical measurements), a careful look at the rim will also show only part of the rim has been touched with the cutter, and most of those rims have a slight to very noticeable "bevel" that shows distinct signs of having been made by being drawn and then turned from a casting.

4. Look carefully at the "DOMINION" and the "43M" markings. On the counterfeit cases, the corners of the letters are rounded (not sharp like they should be when stamped in) and the surface in the bottom of the letters is not smooth (again, as would be when actually stamped in).

5. The cases I have are made from a softer brass alloy than is used by Western and European cartridge case manufacturers. When unpolished cases are laid side by side, the counterfeits have a slightly more "reddish" tint to them, not easy to discern, but under a bright light the difference can be noticed. Can't be used as the first indicator, but does help confirm them as suspect when the other characteristics are also present.

6. Finally, (and this might be good to do to all your cases) look carefully around the rim/body area of the case, look for a spot discoloration or black pinpoint. This could well be the beginning of a case separation right at the rim. When I did this, I also discovered two cases that had cracks starting form the rim and radiating in towards the primer pocket, that could have failed on the next firing, and would definitely fail soon. Again, these didn't show up by using just the unaided eyeball. The jeweler's loop is essential.


Some comments/thoughts about safe loads and pressures.

The metallurgy in these 71/94 Mausers was excellent for the time. The basic design and metallurgy used by the Mauser Brothers when developing and producing the 71/84 action shows it would handle at least 24,000 PSI when new, but it would be unwise to push these particular oldtimers that far these days. Any one of these "oldies" in good shape can safely handle loads in the 20,000 PSI range such as 35 grains of 4198 or, 45 gr of 3031, behind a 387 gr cast bullet, as stated in several available references (similar to basic loads for the 45-70). My rifle "likes" 45 gr of 3031 behind a 370gr hard cast bullet. others have found milder loads that shoot even more accurately.

When shooting "black" I actually have been using Hodgdon's "777", 60 gr behind the 370 gr bullet with good results. That load develops only about 15,000 PSI. The original German BP load of 70 gr Fg behind the military 300 gr bullet developed approx 11,000 PSI. Fills the case without concerns about compression.

I also got into the whole "headspacing" issue on the 71/84, courtesy of a local gunsmith, which confirmed a concern about the common use of 43 MAUSER cases being made from .348 cases. If you look carefully at the bolt face on the 71/84, you will find the case rim sits in a machined recess in the bolt face that is 0.093" deep, which just happens to be 0.002" deeper than the rim of the original 11.15x60R cases that were designed for the 71/84 Mauser. From the original design and manufacturing measurements, on a properly fitted rifle when the bolt is closed, the end of the bolt face actually just touches the end of the barrel, fully enclosing the case rim, and allowing a real headspace of from 0.002 min to 0.004" max.

Using a reformed .348 case (or, a reformed 45-120 case as I almost did) actually results in a very excessive headspace of approx 0,026", which even after handling only a few BP loads, will fail right at the rim.

The old BELL "A" base cases were right on, but they aren't available any more. I've got a box of Bertram cases on order, and I'm hoping they will match the original spec'd dims for the 11.15x60R case. Otherwise, it looks like I'll be machining cases to ensure I've got the right headspeace, and, give me some added case strength in the head/body junction area. From everything I've read recently, I also suspect the 'bad rap" Bertram cases have been getting may actually be due to the headspace issue on the 71/84, and the difficulty in properly measuring it.

Here's something to think about.

The headspacing on a 71/84 is defined by the depth of the recess on the bolt face AND the length of the bolt end AND the total distance from the back (rear) part of the bolt handle where it mates with the receiver frame PLUS the end of the barrel as it relates to the bolt buildup. Normal wear and tear on any functioning 71/84 will cause wear in these areas, and shooting over the years can cause some "setback" of the back of the bolt handle where it mates with the receiver. On my rifle, we discovered this setback had reached 0.010", which would have never been discovered if I hadn't dug deep into why this rifle failed. Wasn't the cause, but it didn't help either. The headspace problem on my 71.84 is getting fixed through the addition of a 0.010" circular shim between the bolt body and the bolt head. Clean fix, no need to take the barrel out, reseat it and then re-cut the chamber.

As for the stock, I'm getting a custom stock blank made (gave up trying to replace the original stock), and am also having to make a new magazine tube. Can't buy those things. The making of a new magazine tube for the 71/84 is a whole other story.

Still trying to get good closeups of the failed cases. If anyone wants to see them, let me know.

Whew. Didn't mean to write a book, but it is a lot of hard dug info that I wanted to share. Hope you find it useful.

Steve

[arclight]

Steve,

I have seen aftermarket replacements for the magazine tube on sale at the usual auction sites. Look around, and also check the "completed items," as you might be able to track down the maker.

I was looking into making these as a "shop fund" project while back, until I saw them for sale at a reasonable price online.

Let me know if you need anything for your 71/84. Mien is complete, and I'd be willing to machine you some replacement small parts for the cost of materials.

My 71/84 is currently my favorite shooter, and I can only imagine the sinking feeling that would go with seeign it blow up.
Arclight

[Southwestern Canuck]

Evening Arclight,

Thanks for the suggestion on possible magazine tube sources, I'll look into the possibility of getting one somehow. In my efforts to come up with a "new" one, i managed to find a commonly available thin-wall steel tube that is very close to the original, and was looking into having an expander button made up to stretch it out to 0.590 ID (as made, its ID is 0.583) to be able to keep the same follower, but there are some real concerns in trying to do this on such a thin walled tube. I have managed to get a new spring, and plan on using a sleeve inserted into the new stock to act as a guide to slide the new magazine tube into (to facilitate cleaning and disassembly). Looks good on paper, and I have run across a couple of custom shotguns that used a similar technique for their magazine tubes, so it should turn out reasonably well. As much as doing this might disturb some purists, I've decided not to try to maintain the rifle's "originality" in the restored shooter, which will have a very conventional looking "Monte Carlo" style stock, with the magazine tube poking out of the stock under the barrel like the 94 Winchester. Will be a good winter project.

Steve

[TAWILDCATT]

OWS has new made mag tubes.complete with stacking rod(cap)gunparts has springs.or 45/70 from brownell.

[korvettenkapitan]

Check out my photo's of the Dominion 43M, head case separation ,in the All Albums tab .
Korvettenkapitan-----------

[Southwestern Canuck]

To all, I trust everyone had a great Christmas, and my wishes to all for a very good year to come.

korvettenkapitan's shots of the case head separation he experienced shows just about exactly what I was talking about earlier (I need to figure out how to upload my shots so you can compare notes, and the "not so nice" effects of using this counterfeit brass).

Working with the gunsmith at Lawson's, he restored the proper headspace on my 71/84, and now there is less than a 0.001" gap between the end of the closed bolt and the face of the barrel. With a case rim recess on the bolt face of 0.094", my rifle is now at the original "factory spec". Test firing with a nominal smokeless load (370 gr lead bullet and 35 gr of 4198) and a known good case, went as expected, no excessive case expansion or elongation, not even a suggestion of any elevated pressure.

As for the new stock. Randy Lawson came up with a chunk of California Claro Walnut that, using the original stock as a basic pattern, produced a roughed "Modern Classic" style stock that I'm in the final stages of finishing the inletting and doing the overall shaping.

By the time its done, the metal work will still be all "71/84" but at a glance, the finished rifle sure won't look like one. We made the stock deliberately heavier (more "meat" around the receiver area and under the magazine tube), adds some weight to the rifle, not really a bad thing, but sure makes it more comfortable to hold. Putting this kind of stock around a 71/84 without modifying the metalwork was a bit of a challenge, but the end result is well worth the effort. Expect to get this project to completion over the next two months (most of that time will be applying the many sessions of hand-rubbed finish). Probably by the time I figure out how to upload the pics of the counterfeit cases, I should have some shots of the finished rifle.

As for a new magazine tube, tried all the suggestions, but finally gave up trying to track one down. Did get a new spring for an 1895 Marlin which is perfect for the 71/84, and have made a new follower for it. I managed to find a section of thin-wall steel tubing that, with a very slight expansion (0.005") makes a prefect magazine tube (0.590" ID, 0.62" OD). I "plagiarized" Winchester's tubular magazine front-end attachment concept from my pre-63 Model 94, and have created an arrangement that looks like it was supposed to be that way, without having to mangle a real magazine tube and end cap.

As for brass, I am going to give the Bertram cases a careful try. Knowing what I now do about the headspace issue on these rifles, and knowing mine is as good as it can be, if the Bertram case rimes are really around 0.093" as advertised, there shouldn't by any problems. For those of you using cases made from formed .348 brass, check of the excessive headspace you might inadvertently be playing with, it could easily lead to premature case failures at the rim.

Steve

[Humpy]

Someone mentioned the Bell 43 Mauser brass was no longer available? Glad I got some when I did. I know where there are several boxes of original Dominion 43 ammo for sale. It is original as I knew they guy that worked for the place that got all Dominion had when they ceased production a thousand years ago.

[oilman041153]

hi in one of your threads uou said that you found a supplier that had magazine tubes for 71/84 mauser rifles. or you where thinking of makig some of these parts. if you could help me to get two of these mag tubes i would be a happy person

thanks oilman041153

[doug strong]

Like Oilman I am looking for mag tubes. I need four of them. Any help woufl be appreciated.

[doug strong]

I would love a Black Powder load for 397G cast Boolits. Any suggestions?

[TAWILDCATT]

use 45/70 load.45/90 cases should work.45/70 is short. and Bertrame is made from 45/90.

[Beekeeper]

I have one of the 43 mausers and enough parts to build a second one.
For those who want to build one here are the places I have found that carry parts .
OWS has most of the operating parts for them as well as some complete rifles.
E-mail " dixie" at ows for pricing and availability.
Numrich Gun Parts has a lot of parts, kind of pricy but all are excellent parts
Sarco had bolts but have not checked in some time but don't know
Jack First ( you have to call them) has a lot of hard to find parts, a friend bought a magazine from them
Centerfire Systems has barreled actions that have some parts on them for $9.99 each.
I recently bought 4 of them for parts and using Numrichs price list have about $200 in spare parts. Have not cleaned the barrels or actions yet so do not know the condition yet.
I scratch built my stock and will do the same with the second one.
I know it ain't kosher but I bought a piece of 2by 8 walnut ( kiln dried and started from there).
I posted pics of it in a previous thread
Will help anyone with what little knowledge I have for anyone who wants t build one.


Jim

[Beekeeper]

Graf and sons had 43 mauser bertram brass some time ago. do not know if they still have any.

Jim

[John 242]

This rifle model never saw wartime service - too late for the Franco-Prussian war, totally obsolete by WW1.

Just to clarify…
According to Paul Scarlata (Shotgun News 7th Annual and the 9th Annual) many single shot Mauser1871s were dragged out of retirement at the beginning of WWI. They were needed in order to arm the huge numbers of reservists being called up for active duty. Some of these rifles supposedly saw combat in Europe at the beginning of the war. I would think that the Model 71/84 rifles were also used in combat but the articles I read don’t specifically say so.
The. German Navy was reissued the Model 71 and 71/84 at the beginning of WWI. The Navy turned in their modern Mauser Model 98s so that those rifles could be issued to land forces.
Mauser 1871 Jagerbuchse rifles were used in the German African colonies till the end of WWI.
It would make sense that the repeating Model 71/84 also saw service, but I haven’t seen that documented.
On page 15 of Guns of the Reich (Markham 1989) there is a photo of members of the Freikorps (post 1918) using various rifles including what is possibly a Model 1871 or 71/84
Germany in WWI, and again in WWII, was not prepared for a long large scale conflict. The Germans resorted to using whatever weapons they could scrounge, including obsolete small arms. The French and Russians were in the same boat.
I wouldn’t doubt that some Model 71/84s were used as last ditch rifles by the Volkssturm at the end of WWII.
The subject is very fascinating… to me anyway.

[JMtoolman]

I am glad to read about the Dominion brass for my 71/84 rifles. I checked my brass and found two cases with Dominion headstamps. They also to me appear to be cast brass. I looked at them under my microscope after sectioning them and they both had cracks starting at the junction of the head and web. They are now deposited in the junk brass bucket after cuting them apart. I don't know where I got them over the years, probably picked them up at a gun show somewhere, I have only been shooting the 43 Mauser since the 1960's. Thanks again, the toolman.

[Ron.D]

Doug Strong. I have shot a few strictly Black powder loads but don't have notes on the velocity. I do remember that they grouped well. The load I've shot most was a duplex load. with approx 70 grs. of FFg over 8 grs. SR4759. Velocity's 1370'/s using the RCBS .466 boolit with a version of Emmert's lube. Grouped very well and penetrated a black bear lengthwise. Alloy was 30-1. I remember using enough black powder to cause 1/8th" compression so the duplex powders wouldn't migrate. Hope this helps a little. Ron.D

[doug strong]

I have 20 Bertram cases and I think I will start tomorrow with 60gr of Hodgdon's 777 over a 370gr blue lubed bullet. In order to fill the case I will use a couple grains of polyfill. How does that sound as a starting place?