loading for the 43 Mauser/ 11mm Mauser

[Newfoundlander2]

I haven't researched this at all, this is just "off the top of my head" but is it possible your Dominon brass had mercuric primer in it? I don't recall when factories switched from the mercury fulminate priming material but I think some were still using it in the 40's. Mercury compounds made the brass brittle, it wasn't much of a problem in the early days using black powder as the fouling somewhat protected the case from the mercury but when smokeless came in mercury was a serious problem.

Sorry for dredging up an old thread but it bears mentioning that Dominion 43 Mauser cases are balloon headed and have thin bases. If the case doesnt fail on the first reloading chances are it will by the second or third. I bought a case of '70s vintage ammo a few years back and the first thing I did was pull the head and cross section a case to see if "newer" CIL cases had the same affliction as the firm's older offerings. Not surpisingly it was also balloon headed and thin in the base.

[TAWILDCATT]

GIBBS RIFLE ,NAVY ARMS,VAL FORGETT ALL THE SAME.I have two of those 84s and they must have stripped them not to long ago,the parts are all over so you have to hunt and pay up.bolt heads are hard to find and extracters.
gun parts have mag springs but no followers.they also have new made stocks.
you can make shells from 45/70 or 45/90.45/70 are short at the neck and may need rim trimed to fit in the carrier.
mercury was stopped in early 1900 for that reason. corrosive primers have potassium clorate priming.I have one original unfired shell dated 1887.I took it apart in the 50s.I had a carbine and 2 boxes of shells, all fired.

[Southwestern Canuck]

I too have a 71/84, with full matching P/Ns throughout, that lost its extractor and had the original stock damaged enough that it needs replacement, due to a failure of a Dominion 11.15x60 case right at the junction of the rim and case body, when handling a relatively light load (60 grains of 777 behind a Lyman cast 370 gr bullet).

So, with regard to the notes from "Trooperdan", "Bigjohn", and "Newfoundlander2", I can confirm problems with Dominion brass failing right ahead of the rim, on relatively light loads. Actually a bit of an upsetting experience, made me very thankful about wearing eye protection, and that I wasn't shooting the smokeless loads I had also worked up for this rifle (which previously had shot cleanly and well, with no indications of any pending failures).

For the brass that failed, this was only the second time these had been reloaded (the original factory loads, then one time through using 46 gr of 4064 behind the 370 gr cast bullet. then finally the 60 grain load of 777 behind that same bullet. No barrel fouling present (the shot actually hit where I placed it). I pulled the bullets from the remaining 9 loads, the deprimed and "autopsied" the cases. Nothing was visible on the outside, but the inside of several cases showed hairline cracks circumferentially above and below the "balooned" portion at the rim. Has made me come to a shuddering halt on using these cases at all. Interestingly, I have a few "Imperial" cases that are fine (not formed the same way as the Dominion cases, no baloon section involved). I too will be going to some completely new cases, probably the Bell ones (had good service with them on my 577/450).

Bottom line, I can recommend staying away from the Dominion cases, or any other case that is formed in the same manner, you simply have no way to tell when it might be ready to let go. And when these fail at the rim like they are prone to do, that gets a whole lot nastier to the shooter than a lengthwise split further into the chamber.

SDM

[arclight]

I guess I got lucky when I bought one of the "mostly complete" 71/84's from SOG.

Is anyone interested in a repro magazine follower? I'll pull mine out and mic it when I get in this week. I think I could machine a replacement part fairly reasonably.

Arclight

[EchoSixMike]

I've had excellent results with the RCBS bullet of 20:1, 35gns of 3031 in Bertram brass. S/F.....Ken M

[TAWILDCATT]

I made one cart from 45/70.had to skim the rim.45/90 should work.
the guns from OWS/navy arms/gibbs.cost a lot to rebuild.where do you get the stocks.I just got a firing pin from SARCO $32.gun parts has some parts.they stripped the guns and the parts are all over.gun parts have mag springs but no followers.I think the springs are from something else as they are small dia.

[arclight]

OK, I disassembled my rifle tonight and measured the follower. I can make this part for $35+shipping. Anyone interested if I do a run?

Arclight

[Morgan Astorbilt]

The most difficult operation in forming11.15x60R(.43 Mauser)brass from .348 is swaging or turning the head diameter down from .546" to .511". The best way is turning a set of swaging dies, and doing it in several stages in a large vise or hydraulic press. Most samples of "store bought" converted .348 brass in 11.15x60R and in 10.4x47R Vetterli, just had the solid portion of the head turned down. I never trusted this method, and swage all my brass. The .348 rim dia. is OK, at .605 (the .43 is .608).
Morgan

[Southwestern Canuck]

Morgan,

Appreciate the info on using reformed .348 brass.

Was starting to think about that option upon finding out BELL is no longer producing their 11mm "A" base brass, and that more than one person has raised cautions on using the Bertram 11.15x60R stuff, apparently it is reported to be quite brittle and also prone to failing at the rim area.

Talked to the people at Buffalo, and they provide .43 Mauser cases made from .348 brass, but he didn't indicate if the head area was swaged down, or machined. So the question I have is, does anone know, and/or, has anyone tried their reformed cases?

After seeing the kind of damage a failed rim causes with just a light load, I want to be reasonably sure I've got the best cases possible before I put this carefully restored beastie close to my face again.

Some have suggested using 45-70 brass, but given the relative dimensions of rim and head diameters, I would suspect the 45-120 case would be a better "fit", would only need an 0.011" reduction in rim diameter, and a fair chunk trimmed off the length after forming, but with the head diameter being 0.10 smaller, not too sure if that would be a problem.

Anyone have any thoughts on going this way?

Steve

[Pavogrande]

I have three new boxes of Dominion 43 mauser -- There is no mention of either mercury or corrosive primers -- In fact just "suitable for 71 mauser" and 385 gr bullet --- Pretty sparse info on box --- Pretty brass though -- I do believe it is newer than the 50's tho --- In another batch of fired cases the dominion cases show no signs of mercury deterioration -- just an observation, nothing proven --

[Pavogrande]

Sorry did not see page two -- tough to get old

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Steve, This is a set of dies I turned to form 10.4x47R Vetterli out of .348. The large circular piece is a base to press the case in the swaging dies using one side, and receive the case when pressed out with the rod using the other. Each of the two dies on the top right, has a polished swaging area on each end, giving a total of four steps. The neck expanders are on the bottom. Not pretty, but they were made for me, not a customer, so I just used scrap shafting for the stock, and didn't bother to knurl them.
I no longer use these, since being turned on(by a member of this board) to available 8x50R Lebel brass that just needed fire forming and trimming.
Morgan

[uscra112]

I too have one of those pristine 71/84s. I've had it for several years now, and have yet to shoot it. It's SO perfect that I just can't bring myself to do it. I bought 100 rounds of brass from RCBS, about 5 years ago. No, it's not for sale, but check with them. I get excellent service from RCBS. My first choice whenever I need brass.

Researched it extensively when I first got it.

This rifle model never saw wartime service - too late for the Franco-Prussian war, totally obsolete by WW1. Legend has it that a great many of these came to Canada, although the legend doesn't say when. My guess is post WW2. Canadians cut them down and happily clobbered moose with them. Hence the existence of Dominion branded smokeless ammo for them. ( I have a box. )

The fact is, though, that this rifle was designed for black powder, and a specifically designed for a PAPER PATCHED BOOLIT. I bought about 40 rounds of the original Mauser ammo at a gun show, and that's what it is, sure enough.

My 71/84 does have a tight-neck chamber. Very tight. Idea was to use a boolit would be small for the groove diameter, and would chamber with fouling present. Then it would "slug up" when fired to fit the bore.

Inspection of my OEM ammo reveals an OEM boolit that is pure lead, swaged, (no grooves), with a paper patch. A nekkid slug mikes at about .421 diameter. The OD of a pulled boolit with patch is about .431. (WAY small for the nominal .446 groove diameter! ) Neck diameter of the loaded rounds is only .446. To keep the rounds from rattling around, the chamber neck is therefor small.

This was apparently S.O.P. in that period. Paul Matthews specifically mentions this practice in his book, "The Paper Jacket". It was also used by some USA makers too, as Buckshot points out.

One fellow I know (vaguely) says that he has run a .45-70 reamer into his, to open up the neck. I would never do that to mine.

My take on the 71/84 is to use it as an excuse to get into paper patching ! You couldn't find a better subject.

Good luck with it !

[TAWILDCATT]

factories changed from mercury primers around 1900.as the new smokless was being used and the cases were coming apart.potasium clorate is the one that is corrosive.

[Southwestern Canuck]

Hi All;

Been digging into the cause of the case failures I had experienced, and have discovered something a bit strange/discomforting to say the least. All of the cases in my posession are "head stamped" DOMINION 43 MAUSER.

All in all, aside from the cases I'd "autopsied" where I found internal circumferential cracks along the rim, I found three more cases that had actually failed at the rim, in addition to the one that blew the extractor off and turned the stock into scrap. One case had a small (approx .12" long) circumferential split along the rim/case junction, one that not only had a similar split along the rim, but had a crack that had opened up through the rim and almost all the way in to the primer pocket, and one with, effectively, a pinhole at the rim/case junction.

Now for the "strange" bit. All of the cases that failed, and all of the cases that showed hidden internal circumferential cracks, showed rim and head areas that had been cast (yes, CAST) and then machine turned to give the proper rim diameter (and, in some instances, reducing the body diameter just ahead of the rim). The so called "head stamp" on these particular cases was also cast into the head, NOT stamped. and the composition of the case is of a different brass (somewhat more reddish) than the Dominion cases I had obtained from a known good source (Canadian new in the box stuff from the mid '50s).

Over the years, I had picked up these other "Dominion" cases at various gun shows, and I specifically remember buying one set of 10 of these cases as "new" cases at a show in Plattsburg about 10 years ago. Many of these suspect cases also have a rim that is bevelled at approx 30 degrees, with the bevelled area also showing a characteristic cast finish where machining the rim diameter had not removed the surface. A couple of these cases also show the cast finish circumferentially around the primer pocket (if I can get a decent set of closeups, I'll post them here.)

The cases I can vouch for as being original Dominion cases are clearly formed by an extrusion process that leaves a very characteristic "finish" to the head and rim areas, and the head stamping is clean and properly formed, definately not formed following a casting process. None of these "good" cases show any abberations as seen on the failed cases.

Leaves me wondering if the failure cases were "counterfits". They certainly were not produced by the same process as were the verified original cases. I have seen examples of brass cartridge cases produced in Yemen and Pakistan, and both the colouring of the brass and the inconsistencies on finish lead me to suspect these cases may have been produced in such an environment.

To anyone reading this, take a careful look at any "DOMINION 43 MAUSER" cases you may have in you posession, and look for the kinds of things I've found. I would recommend that if you find cases that exhibit cast surfaces in the rim and head areas, or evidence of machining around the rim/case junction, be suspicious, very suspicious. I keep thanking my Maker that I was shooting a light 777 load at the time, and not the 3031 bases loads I'd worked up.


Morgan,

Might take you up on the offer. I looked into the possibility of using that Lebel brass, or, 9x57R Rubin, both good fits, but couldnt find either, and although the 45-120 case is a really close fit to form into an 11.15x60 case, its rim is only .059 thick versis the .07 rim on the .348 case (don't want to mess with the headspacing).

I'll let you know shortly.

Steve

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Offer???
Steve, I was just showing you what you'd need to swage the cases down. The set for the Vetterli won't swage the cases down far enough for your gun. Someone locally can surely turn a set of swage dies, if you make a chamber casting to see how much you have to bring the case heads down(Chambers vary, and you might get away with a larger base). After swaging,you can the run the cases through a .43 sizing die(if needed), anneal the forward half, and fire form with a fast powder such as Bullseye, and a sheet of TP.

Graf has the 8x50R Lebel brass. Item #GRU8X50R $39.99/100 $189.95/500 $359.91/1000
wwwgrafs.com
800/531-2666

Oldeyes was the one who turned me on to them, thanks again, pard.


The Lebel brass will need less swaging than the .348Win.(.536" vs. .547") to bring it down to the .511" (or .516") of the .43 Mauser.(Seen both sizes given, Nonte .511", Donnelly .516")That's why I recommend a chamber cast.
Morgan

[Southwestern Canuck]

Hi Morgan,

Understood, and apologies for misconstruing the earlier message. But good information taken to heart.

As for getting a good "fit", been researching case candidates, and the case that appears to need no swaging to "fit" my chamber is the 45-120 (dia of 0.511 vs chamber dia of 0.513). Also runs through the .43 die set easily, so the only remaining concern is the actual thickness of the case head. Even though the rim thickness in only 0.011 less than the .43 Mauser case rim, the actual thickness of the case head is averaged at 0.094", which matches the bolt face recess, which in turn sits 0.02" away from the barrel face with the bolt closed, for a total distance of 0.096". For those of you that have made cases from brass such as the .348 or the Lebel case, where their total thickness of the case head is that of the rim, does the unsupported excess headspace of approx 0.03" cause any problems? Or, do I need to build up the inside of the recess on the bolt face to reduce headspace to the rim thickness?

Or am I missing something?

Steve

[korvettenkapitan]

Wish I had come about this site sooner, I too have had a 43 Mauser Dominion Case separate at the base !
It happened on my M71/84 and cracked the otherwise flawless stock as the gasses tried to escape, also the extractor and ejector broke.
I'll inspect my other Dominion cases which I bought some 20 yrs. ago. and have never fired.
Due to my inexperience with loading Pyrodex (or any BP), this might have cause the pressure problem resulting in the case separation at the base. Some how I missed the warning about air space in the cartridge! Safety glasses helped deflect otherwise unintended results.

I have used Dupont 3031 @39grains for years with no problems in both the M71&M71/84.
Have the 2 cavity RCBS Boolit Mold .446 (11mm.) and normally use my old Bell Brass .

[Buckshot]

korvettenkapitan, welcome to the board! Just something extra special about these old war horse, isn't there?

.................Buckshot

[StrawHat]

Somewhere in my pile of magazines is an article on loading the 43 Mauser. Written by Ross Seyfried so it was probably in either Hnadloader or Rifle magazine about 8 or 10 years ago. When I find it I'll reference the issue so it can be read.