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Thread: Adventures in top punch making (Long)

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    A 4 jaw chuck is relatively easy to center with a dial indicator.....
    When I was in high school machine shop, a looong time ago, we were taught that any decent craftsman could center a piece of stock within a couple of thousandths without an indicator.

    You touch the high side with the tip of the cutter, turn the chuck 180 degrees and touch the low side while using the marks on the cross slide dial to measure the difference. Back off half the difference and move the stock to touch the tool.
    You might have to do this a couple or three times before the stock runs true.
    Once you get the hang of it, you can get it done in a couple of minutes.

    We also learned how to use a shaper, drill press, figure feeds and speeds for cutting, and do heat treating. Of course, I had to give up a Latin class to take machine shop, so I can't converse with Latinos fer beans.

    Jack

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy oldtoolsniper's Avatar
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    I really appreciate all of the advice. Since I am retired I have lots of time to get myself in trouble and I am pretty good at it.

    I better not tell you all about the log splitter I made from an old lawn mower and some stuff I found in a grove I was trapping the skunks out of.

    “Work hard! Millions on welfare depend on it!”

  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldtoolsniper View Post
    ...

    I better not tell you all about the log splitter I made from an old lawn mower and some stuff I found in a grove I was trapping the skunks out of....
    Do you happen to watch the Red Green Show?

    Jack

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy oldtoolsniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhrosier View Post
    Do you happen to watch the Red Green Show?

    Jack
    Never heard of it
    “Work hard! Millions on welfare depend on it!”

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy oldtoolsniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catshooter View Post
    oldtoolsniper,

    That was funny, thank you.

    What part of Iowa do y'all live in? Are you near me in south east South Dakota?


    Cat
    I am in North central North Iowa
    “Work hard! Millions on welfare depend on it!”

  6. #26
    Boolit Master xr650's Avatar
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    Thanks for the laugh man.

    Remember when you are indicating your part, there are two sides of the part. The indicator only reads one side. If your TIR(total indicator reading) is .300" ,as mentioned above, do not move the high side more than .150".

    I could tell you stories about teaching dialing in a 4 jaw all night long.
    I had one guy that worked on dialing in a piece of material for an hour or so. Came an told me he had it. He had all four jaws within .005" of zero, but 3 rotations of the dial off. I hadn't told him the needle needed to be on the same rotation.

    I've had new folks tell me how easy machining looks by watching experienced machinists. They sing a different song when they start learning.

    Keep trying and asking for advise. Lots of folks here with the knowlege.

  7. #27
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    When I wanted to get started as a "machineist" I went to my local college and found the adult ed section. In it they had a basic machinery class that started you out as a know nothing and worked you up from there.

    Class was 4 hours a Sat. for 8 weeks. What a blast! Many of the class members had been going to it for years while some, as I was , were complete newbie's!

    The teacher started us all with safety and progressed to hand grinding our cutting tools and then to demonstration of how the controlls worked. 3 Sat. and we were cutting metal!

    Be advised these old school teachers have had enough chuck keys thrown at them that they will not hesitate to throw them back with force! If you find a class do not make the mistake of leaving a Chuck Key in the machine! You can pretty much break anything but that is the ultimate NO NO!
    I took the class for 2 years and still have much to learn but have recieved enough education that I can figure most of the simple stuff out on my own.

    It's not that hard but you do need the help to get rolling.

    Good Luck.

  8. #28
    In Remembrance
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldtoolsniper View Post
    I was trapping the skunks out of.

    Thought you said you were trapping skunks. Looks like you snagged the White House Chief of Staff in that picture. Or wait, is that Speaker Pelosi. . . hard to tell seein' as how they both look so similar. Just glad you were wearing gloves.


  9. #29
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    Great story that I can relate to. I took a machine shop class and then bought a lathe. It is still a learning experience.

    Wait till you try threading for the first time and need to change the gears!

    John

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by garandsrus View Post
    Great story that I can relate to. I took a machine shop class and then bought a lathe. It is still a learning experience.

    Wait till you try threading for the first time and need to change the gears!

    John
    You guys that are artists with machine tools have my awe and respect. I'm okay to decent (at times) with my woodworking tools and shop, but working with metal has always been a struggle.

    Lead is about as challenging of a metal/alloy as I can take at times. Maybe when I get fully retired I might try some metal working. I really need to learn how to weld--have some projects around the house and such in which that particular skill would come in real handy.


  11. #31
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    Oldtoolsniper, being in north central Iowa, you might want to make a road trip north, to Hector, Minnesota. Drive up Main Street, and find Lange's Machine Shop. Bob is an old time machinist, who can make anything from a watch screw, to a cannon. I believe he is currently re-building an old steam engine in the shop.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recluse View Post
    Thought you said you were trapping skunks. Looks like you snagged the White House Chief of Staff in that picture. Or wait, is that Speaker Pelosi. . . hard to tell seein' as how they both look so similar. Just glad you were wearing gloves.

    Stop with the hate speech!!! No skunk on earth was ever as bad those things you mention!


    OTS- Must be a Marine thing, you write like I do. "Math for Marines"! I took that one and a few others too, had to take a couple courses for promotion didn't we? It's been a long time.

    Keep playing with the lathe. I have an Atlas 6' lathe which I believe is nearly the same as your Craftsman. There are at least a couple websites devoted to these lathes, tooling for them and using them. Whatever you do, don't succumb to the temptation to buy carbide tooling for the little lathes, at least not the inexpensive Harbor Freight/Grizzly type. The tool posts just aren't rigid enough to work well with carbide. Nice sharp HSS is whats wanted. BTW- for a top punch try a nice soft bolt. Save that square stock for better purposes.

    Well, I'm off to Walmart to find my Magic Blanket. I'll pick up a Sham-wow while I'm there.......
    Last edited by 45nut; 03-12-2009 at 01:54 PM.

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy oldtoolsniper's Avatar
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    Whatever you do, don't succumb to the temptation to buy carbide tooling for the little lathes, at least not the inexpensive Harbor Freight/Grizzly type. The tool posts just aren't rigid enough to work well with carbide.
    How did you know what I was thinking? must be a Marine thing.
    “Work hard! Millions on welfare depend on it!”

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    I wish I had read this earlier, it's the funniest damn thing I have seen in a while! I am picking up my first lathe in 2 days, maybe thats why I got such a laugh out of it....

  15. #35
    Boolit Master

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    http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2009/Main/598

    The G7028 and the G7031 as well as the G7030.

    As far as carbide tools go, these ones here came included with my Grizzly G4003 lathe, they work very nicely and the inserts are only $10 for 5 inserts. They are a positive/positive insert. They are some of the first inserted carbide tools I have seen work decent on a smaller lighter duty lathe.

    The G7030 inserts have far too large of a nose radius for threading, the chinee missed the boat there unless you are cutting 4 threads per inch.

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

  16. #36
    Boolit Master snaggdit's Avatar
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    Thanks for the laugh! I remember in college many years ago taking a Materials and Processes class. Half the class was spent working with metals, the rest with plastics. I still have the aluminum exacto knife I made somewhere. I don't recall it being really hard, but we were turned loose on set up machines, with set up tools and parts. I do recall really loving it, though. Yeah, we had to learn tool speed, feed rates, all that stuff you forget as soon as the class is over. I, too, have been thinking about a lathe and mill for awhile. One thing at a time...
    "To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical. " - Thomas Jefferson

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  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master JIMinPHX's Avatar
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    If you're just starting out with a lathe, then the first thing that you really need to get the hang of is setting your tool heights correctly. The tools should be set about .003"-.005" below the spindle center. A little lower is OK, but then you can't face all the way into center of a piece of stock when making a cut. If you set the tools too high, then they rub against the work instead of cutting it. That is a good way to make some smoke. The first thing that I do when I get a new lathe is to make a center height gage for it. That way you can set the height of a tool without taking your work out of the chuck. Basically, you get a tool set to the correct height, then take a measurement from the bed ways of the machine to the tool tip & cut a piece of 1/2" round bar to that exact length with nicely faced ends. Then mark it so that you don't confuse it with a random piece of stock & go make top punches out of it by mistake later.

    As for centering chucks, there are two basic families of chucks, Universal & Independent. The universal is probably what you are describing as a scroll chuck. All the jaws move at the same time when you turn the chuck key. The universal chucks should line up on center within a thousandth or two all by them selves. You can tap them in with a brass hammer to get them perfect if they come up that close by themselves. If they don't come up that close & you have the right jaws in the right slots, then you either need to replace the jaws, regrind the jaws, recut the backing plate or fiddle with the adjust-tru gizmo if it has one. It really needs to be done. An off center chuck is not a good thing to have.

    If you have an independent chuck (each jaw moves by itself), then truing up stock is a regular occurrence. You probably got 3 of those because nobody wanted them. If you never do off center work, like on a mold block or a cam or a crank, then those things are just a big pain in the back side for no reason. One quick trick to truing them up quickly, is to cut a series of concentric circles on the face of the chuck. That way you have a visual reference of where to start each jaw. If your chuck doesn't already have concentric circles, then just take the jaws off & cut a few shallow grooves in the face every 1/4" or so. The exact distance doesn't matter, but try to keep the spacing even so that it looks reasonably good.

    After that you need to learn how to grind the proper clearance angles & tool tip radius on your cutting tools. Then you need to learn the proper feed rates & spindle speeds for the different cuts you want to take with different tools in different materials. That's something that you need a book for. South Bend used to make a good basic lathe manual. I think it's out of print now, but there were zillions of them floating around 40 years ago. You can probably still find one on flea-bay or one of the used book websites.

    Good luck with that thing.

    Jim
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  18. #38
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    ...........Most machining is pretty straightforward and logical. Anything you attempt to do has been done before and there may be 4 ways to end up with what you want. It's just that one way takes 10 minutes and 2 tools, and does NOT require you to hang upside down from the rafters while doing it, like maybe 2 of the other ways would.

    Just look at what you want to do, have a cup of coffee and think about it for a few moments. Four jaw chucks have been mentioned, with several ways to get a part running true without taking all day to do it. I made a simple setup tool. Take a piece of 3/8" rod and cut a shallow taper on one end. This is for something you chuck up with a hole though it. Put the rod in the chuck of your tailstock, then run it up to the work in the chuck.

    The human MkI ModI eyeball is a pretty nifty measureing device, especially if there is something to compare to. In this case the hole in the object in the chuck and the reference is the tapered point. You can dial in the 4 jaw in a jiffy to within a couple thousandths. Now you can run a dial or test indicator on it and only have a couple thousandths to take out. BTW, if you wondered about those radial grooves machined into the face of the 4 jaw? They're actually there as a referance you can use (if chucking something round) to compare jaw position. Nowadays I think they put them on more as a tradition then any other reason, as there may only be 3 or 4 of the grooves.

    There are however a million tips and tricks. One tip. When you use the tailstock to hold a drill bit, reamer, or anything else that's supposed to be on center, do this: Insert the bit and with your hand roll the sleeve of the chuck closed gently while rotating the drill with your other hand. One thing it does is to make sure you don't clamp down on a piece of swarf. This can cock the bit. Secondly (and especially important for small bits) it makes sure the shank is between all three jaws and not offset between just 2.

    ....................Buckshot
    Last edited by Buckshot; 03-13-2009 at 04:50 AM.
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  19. #39
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    I forgot to mention- you can get scads of lathe books at www.lindsaybks.com You can also get the Atlas info off the web, most of it anyway.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master

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    When I want to center a tool I just lightly pinch a 6" scale between the tool and the work, if the tool is on center the 6" scale will be perfectly vertical.

    Buckshots post brings something up, that being a tool for centering a prick punch mark in the lathe.

    http://homemetalshopclub.org/project...r/pmpcntr.html

    Some folks call it a "pump center" and lots of older guys call it a "dog pecker"

    I have a very old one that is only 1/4" in dia and about 6" long.

    Quite a few people simple make their own.

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

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