Gates Extreme Meplat Bullets

[Crass Whackwords]

What we then saw was all matter of criticism about their design. That is all well and good, but as of yet I have seen no designs posted covering the three calibers that these critics feel are good hunting bullet.
Regards, James

James, I do give you credit for making the effort to design a bullet specifically for the Marlin 44. There is a need for bullets tailored for lever actions as demonstrated by the popularity of the RD molds. Lever guns can be very picky about what they will feed and few shooters are willing to do the experimentation required to produce a "proven" design.

I could show you my pet designs, but I do not claim them to be the universal bullet for every application. My designs are tailored to my guns and my purposes.

My philosophy on meplats is to use as big a meplat as the gun will tolerate and still produce decent hunting accuracy. By "decent," I mean as well as I can shoot under field conditions with iron sights. Say, 6 - 10 MOA in a packing pistol or 3 - 4 MOA in a ghost-ringed Marlin.

That said, at lever action velocities and with hardened WW alloy, flat point bullets usually "rivit" on impact, becoming nearly a full wadcutter, so one need not lose sleep over meplat size, within reason.

Meplat may be more important for handgun velocities that are too slow to "rivit" the nose as rifle velocities normally do. Meplat may also be more important for "between the ribs" lung shots where little resistance is encountered.

My philosophy on penetration is that most any hard cast bullet will penetrate satisfactorily, so there is no need to waste lead and pulverize your shoulder attempting to create a load that will penetrate more than the other guy's load in some artificial test medium. If the bullet shatters both shoulders of a bull elk and keeps on sailing, I can force myself to live with that.

Pics show complete penetration through both shoulders of 5 point bull elk. Excessive meat damage. Bullet exited. Elk went down and didn't get back up. Marlin, heat treated wheelweight.



Guess the cartridge. Was it .... ???????

A) 45/70

B) 450 Marlin

C) 50 Alaskan

D) 444

E) 44 mag

F) 357 mag

[GLynn41]

I saw your post some where else -- seems like it was ..........F?

[MT Gianni]

Please indicate distance and velocity when you answer. The damage is impressive.

[Dixie Slugs]

Interesting! First of all, I have never said that I designed bullets for all situations. In fact I have said the bullets I posted on this thread where designed (re-designed?) for handguns within normal handgun hunting distance.
Threre are plenty of visual results for the shotgun bore ammo I developed on the Dixie website for anyone that wish to see.
I have no idea what you shot the animal with and at what distance in the picture, but it does look like excessive meat damage?
We have also tested all of our bullet deisgns on all matter of game under all types of hunting situations. The various designs have been freely given to anyone that may might be interested. I only asked that the name remained the same.
As far as riveting, etc....There is no cast bullet made of of any alloy that I know of that will not show nose damage after breaking large green bones....and many will frag.
Being a license ammo maker selling hundreds of boxes of all types of ammo...we get reports almost on a daily basis of hunting results. Over the past five years we have modified our ammo at times to better suit the hunting situations. Some of our ammo has been used for crop damage control. Not one or two animalsl, but in many cases hundreds of animals.
The point is that after all that has been said, I am still waiting to see posted the handgun bullet designs they thought we best (or better)....and not the flukes that happened with a one time affair.
I am only interested in game bullets and have no interest in long range work with cast bullets. That is just someone else interests and is fine.
Every bullet we have is just a refined design based on actual field work....nothing more and nothing less. What people end up using is no real concern to me. In some parts of this thread, we saw some interesting data....the rest is pure speculation.
With all the variables involved in game shooting, there must be many actual field tests before a resonable idea of bullet design (or re-design) is done.
As far as I am concerned, I see no examples posted of what they think is a better design.....and all this talk has produced very little positive results. There has been a great deal of theory dicussed about all matter of flight of bullets, etc.
I am still waiting to see what is considered the best handgun bullet design and data to back it....really quite simple indeed.
The attached photo is a 2000 lb Angus bull that had to be put down. One shot in the head with a Dixie Terminator-.730"-730 gr hard cast heat treated bullet-1200'/". The bullet pentrated the skull and smashed up three or four vertebrate and still held together. Interesting!
Regards, James

[BD]

My interest in this is primarily hunting related, but I sure enjoyed hearing from Bass on the subject again.

In my search for the best .44 revolver boolit I eventually moved from the Lee 310 grainer down to a 265 WFN primarily to diminish the effects of recoil on POI. The heavier boolits just had too much change of POI due to differences in what gloves I was wearing, or what awkward rest I was making use of, or a one handed vs two handed grip. The 265s still completely penetrated anything I needed to shoot, and they made the details of my grip less critical. Both designs fly very well to the ranges of interest. I suppose there could be an instance where I'd be looking for a 500 yard handgun boolit, and thats fun to try, but my realistic hunting ranges are more like 75 yards and under.

In rifle boolits this is much less of an issue. It's more a trade off of tradjectory vs penetration and flight caracteristics IMO. I'm looking for 1 moa to 200 yards. The less a mistake in range estimation "costs", while still providing effective terminal ballistics, the better off I think I am. I know that the 265 grainers would not accomplish this at handgun velocities, and while they might do so at rifle velocities, there would still be some point at which they'd go unstable. So maybe a heavier boolit, or less meplat is in order.

There is a lot of stuff to explore here, and if it's approached systematically, we could wind up with some valid conclusions, or at least a framework from which to draw inferences for different situations.

My current project is a .451 carbine with a 24 twist as a platform to try and reach my rifle goals.

BD

[felix]

Great, BD! You won't be disappointed. ... felix

[leftiye]

James, I totally understand your desire for posted designs, and Game animal results. For myself however, and not to speak for anyone else - but for newer members/less experienced people - there is a very real need for the philosophical understanding (theory) behind all of this. The possession of understanding requires this.

Plus, I am more or less in the mental situation of saying that while there are fer sure places where a larger meplat is unquestionably better, it's kinda the Weatherby thang all over again. The "other boolits" do kill, and the animal won't know if they were shot with "tomorrow's rifle today" or not. They being dead that is.

Couple this with other concerns, like ballistic coefficient, and some of us are still experimenting with smaller meplats, and hollow points. All I'm saying is that - perhaps to your dismay - this thread has blossomed into an all around discussion of killing effect as relates to bullet design as applies to all calibers and ranges, and types of slug launchers, and I'm well pleased with it. This knowledge is very much needed by anyone who shoots game.

[Dixie Slugs]

I think if people took the time, they would find that most cast bullets used today are used on game.
I have no problem with any bullet designer doing an indepth study on cast designs for range performance indeed.
What I do have a problem with critics lambasting someone's design, what ever it is used for..and not presenting their designs that they feel are better...just that simple indeed!
I have been in this gun and ammo thing all my life...and this is nothing new. In my opinion cast performs within a certain velocity and range and that is reflected in all the ammo we build and sell.
This thread has taught me one thing......stay off other people's turf and I plan to do that exactly. I did not understand what was the prime purpose of Cast Boolits indeed. I did not realize that heavy gun critics would be brought in to work over something as simple as some'one's idea what were good handgun game bullets.
I have many friends over here that I work with and will continue to work with on many ongoing projects indeed. But you will never see me post another spec sheet on bullets. So, friends, I do not know anything else to say. It has nothing to do with hurt feeling, it's just I see it as a no win situation indeed. If one reflects on this thread, there was no designs coming forth from this critics. ...only more self-center self expression. A great opportunity was missed where all of us could discuss the posted designs, rather than vague about this or that.
Regards, James

[felix]

On the contrary, DS! I think most shoot cast because they are cheap. Very few of us use them in competition of any sort, including game. Maybe 50 a year at game? Maybe 500 a year for competitive shoots? I shoot maybe a 1000 a year at the very, very most, and they are shot at raging tin cans, shotgun shells, small rocks, etc. ... felix

[GLynn41]

I did not think this was some else turf-- I would be glad to answer you but I am all over the place in kills with cast bullets so I have theory but not a lot of data to back it up--except all the deer died and I found no bullets--I can tell you what my bullets did as to wounds etc but they are few---I enjoyed the thread - and sorry you feel this way but it is certainly your right to choose what is best for you --as 4 yur designs-- I thought they would be just fine for six gun velocities out to 100+- and that too is theory --sadly no .41 but I understand all the best

[MT Gianni]

I shot about 1800 rds of cast last year, 2 at game animals.

[Dixie Slugs]

Just so the friends i have over here do not misunderstand.....I design, make, and sell big bullets/ball loads to kill game. That is what I deal with on a daily basis and if I say so, have done quite well on the market level.....but that is due 100% to the great customers I deal with. That customer level is meat hunters. Therefore, it is only natural that I am concerned with hunting bullets and their performance on game.
I now understand that it seems most here are looking for something that I do not deal with.....that's fine as long as powder is being burned. Our priorities are just different. In my case, bullet performance comes before extra fine accuracy. I could not care less if a handgun hunting bullet tumbled out at some extended range, if in fact it did, as long as its accuracy was within the capabilities of the hunter and within his hunting situation.
This is precisely why I wanted to see cast hunting designs posted that others felt were better designed than mine......no more no less.
Of course, I would defend my designs and expect more than theory from someone that did not agree with my design. If they had a better design, I would just use it, just like I would expect anyone to use my designs.
Regards, James

[felix]

You have plenty of friends over here. I don't know why you concern yourself. Are you doing something wrong? ... felix

[Dixie Slugs]

Felix...Thank you for your kind words indeed. I really do not know what else to say. I understand more as to the main theme of the Forum. I realize that game bullets seem to be a minor part.
I have no problem with that at all. I am just not interested, as the poster said, in the philosophical aspect of cast bullets, as I deal with only the game bullet part.
From my standpoint...if ammo does not perform, the customer does not reorder....and I am out of business. For me it's really that simple.
Everything we sell has been tested at an open public test. That's a fly or die proposition.
I will always, as I have in the past, respond to the reloader with all the factual information we have.
I am versed only in game bullets design for handguns, brush guns, and shotguns as far as cast bullets go. That is my business, not a hobby.
Regards, James

[crabo]

I read this forum because it is informative and I am learning a lot. To me, it is very interesting to see different viewpoints, experiences and personalities in the posts. When I started reading this forum, I had never cast a boolit. I now am having pretty good sucess with a bunch of different guns and calibers.

The wide diversity of posters, knowledge, and viewpoints make this a great learning institution. I am amazed how civil this discussion has been.

[Bret4207]

I think if people took the time, they would find that most cast bullets used today are used on game. I disagree entirely. Most cast boolits are used in the plinking and paper arena, just as most of the jacketed bullets are. If you mean most DESIGNS, I disagree again. Hunting with cast is practiced by relatively few hunters and only a few designs get a real workout hunting. Currently those desings seem to be of the LBT/B+M style.

I have no problem with any bullet designer doing an indepth study on cast designs for range performance indeed.
What I do have a problem with critics lambasting someone's design, what ever it is used for..and not presenting their designs that they feel are better...just that simple indeed! Could you please point out where your designs were lambasted? I'm not seeing it.

I have been in this gun and ammo thing all my life...and this is nothing new. In my opinion cast performs within a certain velocity and range and that is reflected in all the ammo we build and sell. I don't think anyone is arguing that

This thread has taught me one thing......stay off other people's turf and I plan to do that exactly. I did not understand what was the prime purpose of Cast Boolits indeed. How can you NOT understand what this place is about? Furthering our understanding of the boolit and helping others do the same. I did not realize that heavy gun critics would be brought in to work over something as simple as some'one's idea what were good handgun game bullets. Again, where did all this take place?

I have many friends over here that I work with and will continue to work with on many ongoing projects indeed. But you will never see me post another spec sheet on bullets. I'm taking my ball and going home!? Comon'!So, friends, I do not know anything else to say. It has nothing to do with hurt feeling, it's just I see it as a no win situation indeed. If one reflects on this thread, there was no designs coming forth from this critics. ...only more self-center self expression. A great opportunity was missed where all of us could discuss the posted designs, rather than vague about this or that.It appears to me it IS about bent noses. I've re-read this whole thing and don't see anything that could possibly be taken as you picture it. Do a search on "RPM limits" and then you'll see bloodletting. You have a lot to offer, but so does everyone else, so maybe listen to them before deciding they're dissing you.
Regards, James

As I said in an earlier post- "short range or handgun range" varies from man to man and area to area and so does the game. You'll be passing up a lot of knowledge, as would the rest of us, if we refuse to at least consider what they're saying.

[BD]

I think this thread got started as a hunting boolit thread, and I'm real interested in it as a hunting boolit thread. I also really enjoyed Bass's post, from a theoretical standpoint. IMHO, A little different perspective never hurt any discussion.

My own experience typically runs about 7,000 - 10,000 pistol boolits a year into paper or steel targets, and just a few hundred hunting boolits into paper, and 10 into game when the opportunity arises.

However, my interest relative to the design of cast boolits is about 95% game, 5% target. Those target boolit designs for pistolas are pretty well worked out, and in most all cases the boolit design is not the limiting factor. That's what led to the BD acp. I was looking for a boolit that would work through a 1911 and was better at killing things than the H&G #68, or a RN ball.

Currently I'm real interested in the idea of a full bore "shotgun" slug with lube grooves for rifled barrels. The kind of thing a guy could mold at home and get decent accuracy with.

I'm also interested in sort of an "ideal" cast hunting rifle. I'm a little off the beaten path around here as "ideal" to me revolves around the AR type platform, rather than a lever gun, (never owned one). I'm building a .450 bushmaster to explore this, primarily due to the case capacity to bore ratio, and the slow twist available in factory barrels. Unfortunately I haven't found a barrel maker willing to produce my guess for the ideal tube, but that will come in time.

Lets keep this going, and get back to the design questions themselves.

What's your feelings regarding meplat% to velocity?

BD

[runfiverun]

it is pretty hard for me to say anything about your boolit designs.
i haven't cast with them.
i haven't tried them on an animal.
nor have i shot them for groups.
all i can tell you is what has worked for me and discuss the merits of what has or hasn't worked,or the results of any testing i have done.
can't talk about pigs much as the only ones i have ever shot was in the pen.
i can tell you about shooting some steers each year a few deer and a couple of elk.
i can tell you about knocking down lot's and lot's of steel targets, holes in paper, dirt,trees and rocks i have shot.
but even the rabbits, coyotes,grouse etc..
don't mean much if you are gonna shoot a bufallo.

[waksupi]

Pretty much all shooting I do, is with an eye for hunting in the end game.

I suppose I have taken 40-50 head of big game with cast bullets over the years. The determining factor in how well they kill, is nose design. A flat nose kills better. I have used as small as the 6.5X55, to .45-70's. Considering the nose diameter of these extremes, they both seem to kill in pretty much the same amount of time. Not too many bang-flops, as I tend to take shots through the ribs, so as to not ruin meat. I've seldom had an animal go over 40 yards from being hit.
The past few years, I have used the .358 Win. for the majority of my hunting, and it gives a good consistant wound channel. I must say though, the 6.5 gave every bit as good of a killing wound, as anything else I have ever used.

[44man]

I don't think the answer will ever be in hand but from what all of you have posted so far, everyone really is having a better understanding and is doing a lot of thinking that is perfect instead of beating the bush about how great one boolit design is. I don't think there has ever been a better thread on any site.
I agree 100% on a lot of stuff here. Like the Keith, nothing wrong as long as it is in it's in it's parameters. My only gripe is the accuracy in mine, not how good it works on game.
I feel a boolit that is not accurate will also have a problem with stability in an animal too. We want a straight path with maximum internal damage and full penetration. To expect all we need at every velocity with one parameter only can result in poor performance as animal size changes.
Keep it up fellas, wonderful, wonderful thoughts showing up!