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Thread: Gates Extreme Meplat Bullets

  1. #41
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    PEEEEEERFECT!

  2. #42
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    Great thread -- for what ever it is worth Veral told me in a thread that as velocity goes up like in my .41 Mag Marlin -- then meplat needs to come down some to be a good killer at all ranges--
    also my fav mold in the .41 is a TAN , .400" long nose and a .33 meplat and like (I think it was 44man) the deer I have taken are just whacked - little or no travel and good blood now I wonder what if i move it up to to carbine mv -- will it be less a killer? From my 5.5" Rhawk velocity is 1360 -1400 --in a 41/44 have not clocked it in a normal .41

  3. #43
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    I like the looks of that boolit! Especially in .452. I'm in the process of putting together a .450 Bushmaster to serve as a "modern" cast boolit hunting rifle. My thoughts going in were along the lines of a 300 grainer just under 2,000 fps.

    I did some testing involving big flat meplats in the .44 mag some years ago which included 265 grain WFNs, The Lee 310 grainer, 280 grain ogival wadcutters, (and just for fun some 180 grain flying trash cans). The conclusions I came away with were: There is a relationship between sectional density and meplat area in regard to how stable the boolit flies, and that it may be the speed of the meplat passing through flesh more than the weight of the boolit which matters in terminal ballistics.

    Both the 265 grain WFN and the 280 grain OWC developed accuracy issues at the point they came down through the speed of sound, (the flying trashcans had accuracy issues right out of the tube). Both appeared to fly well off into yonder if launched at 1,110, but pushed past that they both had a range limit beyond which the groups really opened up.

    The Lee 310 seemed to fly well to any range. The groups opened predictably with increasing range. I attributed this to the 310 grainer having enough sectional density to allow it to readily overcome any wobble induced by the "sound barrier". Not proof, just a deduction, and unfortunately this is not conclusive as I didn't have a platform to get the 310 up much over 1,300 fps, so it was coming down through 1,100 at a pretty close range where wobble may not have been so apparent on the target.

    My further experience killing things with these boolits showed me that the 265 grainer did as much, or more, damage to deer and hogs as the 310 grainer, and still penetrated everything completely, with one exception. Again not conclusion as all of these kills were well inside 100 yards.

    I'm looking forward to exploring this futher in .452 as the bushmaster will be able to launch the heavier bullets at considerably higher velocities, and I'll be capable of better baseline accuracy in that platform. Plus the need for a good taper crimp may require another boolit design always a benefit.
    BD

  4. #44
    Boolit Buddy Dixie Slugs's Avatar
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    As Veral said...There is something we saw on the .730"-73o gr Terminator. That bullet does look like a trash can! I sent three loads out to the Linebaugh Seminar for Todd to test....1200'/", 1300'/", and 1400'/"
    What was found that after 1200'/", the velocity dropped, but the cavaity was larger. Other words pressure (or somethig) was builing up on the meplat as velocity increased.....it should not happen by all that some say, but it was there! The slug/bullets were bullet alloy and heat treated.....looked like they could be used again. So far, we know it can happen, but can't nail down any calculations.
    This goes back to what I did on the bullets.....set up some for smashdown close and in the velocity range of 1000'/" to 1300'/"...ergo the Extreme Meplat designs. The other design, truncated Cone nose, was designed for higher velocity. The Extreme Meplat designs do not feed worth flip in lever guns, where all the Truncated Cone nose designs feed well and seem to fly better at higher velocities. Some have said that an ogival nose going down to the meplat "flow" better.....I do not argue that point at all but would have to see where they would be better than the truncated cone. Todd did think that a small radius where the truncated cone met the meplat might help the shear there....but since they found the truncated cone flew well, I have not altered the molds....they are expensive as you know.
    Please understand, we are just now starting understand the whys and wherefores of advanced cast bullet designs.
    Just some thoughts indeed!.....James
    Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Dixie Terminator

  5. #45
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    I think the larger meplat, shot faster might work fine on larger and tougher animals. I have no idea because all I have to hunt here are deer which offer very little resistance to boolit passage.
    What each of you need to do is tailor boolits for what you are hunting. All will get different results depending on the animal.
    It seems we have the same situation as jacketed bullets where each is made for a purpose and none will do it all. Changing boolit construction might be more important then I thought it was. It was my mistake depending on meplat alone.
    What I have been finding will aid deer hunters but might not apply at all with tough game.
    If you shoot deer with a hard cast WLN or WFN from a revolver and results are very good, I would look twice before shooting the same boolit from a rifle.
    It happened to my grandson once. He shot my boolit from his .44 Marlin and made a perfect shot on a large doe. She spun around and he shot her again, this boolit exited right next to the first entry hole. The deer ran off and made somewhere between 150-200 yd's before dropping. I never did any thinking over that, two perfect shots and a long tracking job. Now I know what happened!
    To make matters worse, I used his rifle to drop another large doe in her tracks but thinking back, I shut down her nervous system where I hit her. That gave me more faith in the boolit.
    The Marlin will now use some expansion also in the future.

  6. #46
    Boolit Buddy Dixie Slugs's Avatar
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    Excelllent indeed! Just as the shooter/hunter understands the difference in jackected bullets designs for different game......so must the shooter/hunter understand the different cast designs for game!
    Think of it this way.....if there is a balanced cast bullet.....sectional density/meplat area/velocity.....when you change one factor, it changes one or two of the other factors,,,,just like jacketed bullets. As you said, there is not one cast bullet design that works best for all hunting situations!
    Many times the same bullet works by changing the alloy...that's the easy way...but, again calls for gut-pile-anaysis.....and most do not kill that much game today.
    And, I stress again as to what distance your design was set up for. As I mentioned, I have broken my designs down into two catagories to simplify matters....not the best method, but works most of the time. I also apply that to shotgun bore designs.
    Now...we are getting into the nitty-gritty of cast bullet designs and a collective effort can pay off indeeed.
    During any given year Dixie talks direct to hundreds of shooter.hunters, mainly about deer, then wild hogs, and then a few that have had to put down really big bad critters. There is a little, but not much over-lapping of designs....as with jacketed bullets.
    If we can get the cast bullets shooter/hunters thinking about cast bullet designs as much as jacketed bullet people....we will be farther down the road.
    Regards, James
    Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Dixie Terminator

  7. #47
    Boolit Master BABore's Avatar
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    That is why I decided to use 45 2.1's advise and use 50/50 WW-Pb alloy, along with a boolit that has a decent meplat. As cast it runs around 10 bhn. Good for alot of pistols and LV rifle rounds for thin skinned game. Good expansion. Want a bit more, then HP the same boolit. Water drop or oven HT the same alloy for 22 bhn and the solid version is a good penetrator that still shows some expansion at higher velocity. HP the harder boolit and you get a bunch more. If you need a hard boolit for the gun's likes, anneal the nose of either a solid or HP. One alloy and meplat design. It doesn't cover absolutely everything, but is the closest I've found so far.

  8. #48
    Boolit Buddy Dixie Slugs's Avatar
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    Makes sense! If we can get the cast bullet shooter/hunter/designer to understand that, for the most part.... Tissue Damage is a product of Meplat Area (expanded or not)and Velocity...he will fully understand what Veral (and others)was saying about an incerase in Velocity may call for a decrease in Meplay Area. Note I said may.
    Having underdtood that, he is ready to consider Sectional Density for penetration.
    Going back to 1956.....the problem with Elmer's 429241 for 1200'/" with only
    .280" meplat....reallly not enough of Meplat Area.....but some will not agree with that indeed!
    We found that the cast 44 bullet weighing 265 grs and 1800'/" needed only about .325" meplat for plenty of tissue damage.
    Regards, James
    Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Dixie Terminator

  9. #49
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    Well, I am screwed up now! I received more boolits from babore today and as usual, I don't know whether to shoot them or frame them.
    Thank you Bruce.

  10. #50
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    Same thing happened to me, 44man! 26Charlie sent me some boolits that are still in their shipping package, a red cartridge block, on my desk. I loaded 5 and shot them, and determined they were just too good accuracy wise for beer cans. Reserving them for something more fruitful. ... felix
    felix

  11. #51
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    We have masters of the craft here, that's for sure. I just wished we didn't live so far apart.

  12. #52
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    For my rifle boolit designs with OW nose design I like to go with the most length that will stabalise in the twist it will be used in so the weight (sectional density) is there. For rifles where enough velocity is not an issue about 60% meplate has worked well for me.
    With a rifle where you will consider longer shots the with a handgun the reduced meplate will raise the BC so at longer range impact velocity will be higher than with an extream meplate.
    Really there are two discussions here one about handguns and one about rifles. Because of the differances in velocity potential the importance of design features changes.
    BIC/BS

  13. #53
    Boolit Buddy insanelupus's Avatar
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    I'm not sure I belong in this discussion as there are many here with more cast experience than I. I've not killed anything with a cast bullet yet. However, one aspect of this conversation on bullet design intrigues me, especially when a comparison is made as to jacketed bullets and different designs/bullets for different uses.

    Where I live in Montana, if you draw all the tags (nearly an impossibility) one could, in the same season, hunt mountain goat (draw), sheep (draw), moose (draw), mountain lion, bears, elk and deer. At the time Elmer Keith designed his bullets he was also in similar game country.

    One thing I don't recall him mentioning, nor have I seen on this thread is bullet placement. When I'm hunting elk, I have gone to a Nosler Partition, 250 grain, for my 35 Whelen. I shot a cow 2 years ago with a 250 grain Speer HotCor at less than 75 yards. The bullets did not exit. (First shot was a poor shot as it hit a limb I didn't see passing into the paunch and driving into the ham, the second follow up shot was a shoulder shot which lodged under the hide). As noted by Elmer Keith, she seemed "sick" and didn't go far and I was able to put her down quickly. Had she run I would have needed a good blood trail because of the thick lodge pole timber in the area. Hence I went with the Nosler Partition hoping for an exit wound next time. Incidentally, those were jacketed bullets at 2450 fps.

    However, when using the same rifle on deer, even with the Speer bullet I get very little expansion. In the past if I'm meat hunting does I get close, real close, and just shoot them in the head. It's worked well. I've shot deer in the lungs and while it does the job, the deer run quite a ways with little blood trail. When they lay down though the blood flows out the wounds.

    I've come to the conclusion I have to reach a comprimise and decide which animal I really wish to hunt, which for me is elk. More and better tasting meat in my opinion. However, on deer when using the Nosler bullet I've decided I'll take the shots which pass through the lungs, but also pass through a shoulder in an effort to break the animal down. I don't want a shoulder shot without vitals as well.

    I've heard of this idea on black bears and it is a very hot and debateable subject. Additionaly, when I spoke to the Speer techs about the above bullet performance the gentleman I spoke with told me he had given up on lung shots in the thick timbered mountains like I hunt and he goes for shoulder shots. His comment to me was the following, "I never saw a lung shot elk run any closer to the truck."


    So, all that long winded explanation is my point for considerations of bullet desings and then to ask those who know more than I. When you consider the bullet design to use, the velocity and also of course alloy, what kind of shots are you looking at? Are you limiting yourselves strictly to the lung shots or are you using a design intended to be able to take those quartering shots where heavy shoulders would be involved and how does that effect your considerations for the bullet design, alloy, and velocity?

  14. #54
    Boolit Master
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    In boolit design for killing I am usually thinking center of mass hits and long wide wound channels.
    If the situation allows, head shots. Boolit design wont matter there.
    In a defensive situation against an animal that is intent on hurting me and has the capability I am looking at the brain and spine.
    Potential velocity of the cartridge will dictate the size of the meplate but still and always for me for killing I want the longets practicle length/weight to insure higher terminal velocity and complete penitration. Alloy/hardness can be adjusted to the velocity of the cartridge and expansion charictoristics (if any) desired.
    Discussing expansion and how much is desirable is a whole nuther subject with its own set of rules.
    BIC/BS

  15. #55
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    All I know it that a lyman 375449 (out of a 375 H&H Improved) does waaay more damage on a jackrabbit than you'd believe. Both to the rabbit, and to yer shoulder! Maybe this could be applied to other game (big, long, flat nosed boolit, per caliber, and per game)? Kickum butt good, get less argument.
    Last edited by leftiye; 03-11-2009 at 03:46 PM.
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

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  16. #56
    Boolit Master BABore's Avatar
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    It all depends on the animal your hunting. Deer don't take much to kill and they don't offer much resistance to a good cast boolit. Even a softer alloy, on a quartering forward shot, will break the shoulder, pass through the vitals, guts, break the hind and exit. Makes it kinda hard to run far busted up like that, but also wastes a bunch of meat. The same boolit will expand some on a broadside lung shot. It may or may not drop them right their. Just not enough resistance. Make the boolit harder and it can get worse. It's all on the meplat and velocity. Then the deer shows up to be shot at a range where things work against you. When I was playing around with alloys, hardness, meplate, and hollow pointing, I was trying to compare things to one of the best all around hunting bullets. The Nosler Partition. It's designed to expand quick and shed the nose. Then the shank penetrates deeply. I already outlined my cast boolit equivilent to that above by using a heavier boolit with a HP. It compares pretty well with the Partition.

    For deer I'm shifting towards a little lighter boolit with the same properties cause they're not that big. By light I mean 250-260 grains in the 44 mag or 325 to 350 grains in the 45-70. As the animal gets bigger, so must the weight, so you have enough shank left for penetration. I also ajust the hollow point cavity depth. I guess elk would fall into this category. Anything bigger or more stoutly constructed and the HP goes and the alloy is harder. This is all based on hunting situations that I have been exposed to. If I were to be on a venison hunt where big bears were previlent, I would be rethinking my boolits some.

    I do prefer a head shot if the range and presentation allows. Otherwise I like to be just behind the shoulder to save on meat loss. I won't pass on a quartering or shoulder shot if the situation dictates. Others here have different requirements due to there local. I can allow a deer to run a bit where I'm at. When I go out to Colorado elk hunting, it's a different story. This flatlander doesn't like to lug elk up big hills.

    So to answer your question. It all depends! Test your boolits at point blank and extreme ranges and determine your shot placement based on their performance.

  17. #57
    Boolit Master
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    I recall once testing the Lee 44/300 when it first came out. In ww alloy mine run about 310gn with the check.
    In working up to absolute in a Marlin 44 mag carbine I found that at 1800 fps I would get about 50% extraction failiers. The thin stamped extracter on a Marlin is the week like to the systam. If you crack much over 40,000 psi they will begin to skip over the rim and leave the case in the chamber, this on the 1894 model.
    Backed it off to 1700 fps for a good working load. We were raising rabbits at the time and on my way to the range there sat one about 20 yards away looking straight down my barrel. With the sake of gaining knolage for all in mind I shot that rabbit.
    After the explosion of hair I found I must have hit him right on the nose because there was no head to be found, but I picked up all four legs completely sepperated from each other. The four legs were perfectly fine but thats all there was. The rest was scattered through out the brush and up in the trees.
    The Marlin 44 mag is what My wife and I carried for protection from bears when we lived in logging camps. You get 10 shots of 310gn WFN's at 1700 fps. If those boolits are of a non expanding nature I feel quite comfortable with that in any defensive situation I may run into here. Now if I happened to live on the dark continent I would up my weight burden to the 1895 Marlin and feel none the less protected.
    BIC/BS

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by insanelupus View Post
    I'm not sure I belong in this discussion as there are many here with more cast experience than I. I've not killed anything with a cast bullet yet. However, one aspect of this conversation on bullet design intrigues me, especially when a comparison is made as to jacketed bullets and different designs/bullets for different uses.

    Where I live in Montana, if you draw all the tags (nearly an impossibility) one could, in the same season, hunt mountain goat (draw), sheep (draw), moose (draw), mountain lion, bears, elk and deer. At the time Elmer Keith designed his bullets he was also in similar game country.

    One thing I don't recall him mentioning, nor have I seen on this thread is bullet placement. When I'm hunting elk, I have gone to a Nosler Partition, 250 grain, for my 35 Whelen. I shot a cow 2 years ago with a 250 grain Speer HotCor at less than 75 yards. The bullets did not exit. (First shot was a poor shot as it hit a limb I didn't see passing into the paunch and driving into the ham, the second follow up shot was a shoulder shot which lodged under the hide). As noted by Elmer Keith, she seemed "sick" and didn't go far and I was able to put her down quickly. Had she run I would have needed a good blood trail because of the thick lodge pole timber in the area. Hence I went with the Nosler Partition hoping for an exit wound next time. Incidentally, those were jacketed bullets at 2450 fps.

    However, when using the same rifle on deer, even with the Speer bullet I get very little expansion. In the past if I'm meat hunting does I get close, real close, and just shoot them in the head. It's worked well. I've shot deer in the lungs and while it does the job, the deer run quite a ways with little blood trail. When they lay down though the blood flows out the wounds.

    I've come to the conclusion I have to reach a comprimise and decide which animal I really wish to hunt, which for me is elk. More and better tasting meat in my opinion. However, on deer when using the Nosler bullet I've decided I'll take the shots which pass through the lungs, but also pass through a shoulder in an effort to break the animal down. I don't want a shoulder shot without vitals as well.

    I've heard of this idea on black bears and it is a very hot and debateable subject. Additionaly, when I spoke to the Speer techs about the above bullet performance the gentleman I spoke with told me he had given up on lung shots in the thick timbered mountains like I hunt and he goes for shoulder shots. His comment to me was the following, "I never saw a lung shot elk run any closer to the truck."


    So, all that long winded explanation is my point for considerations of bullet desings and then to ask those who know more than I. When you consider the bullet design to use, the velocity and also of course alloy, what kind of shots are you looking at? Are you limiting yourselves strictly to the lung shots or are you using a design intended to be able to take those quartering shots where heavy shoulders would be involved and how does that effect your considerations for the bullet design, alloy, and velocity?
    You have touched on a touchy subject! The best boolit choice is one that penetrates like gangbusters, busts up internals to mush and still will not destroy shoulder meat. The ideal is one that will go through heavy shoulders yet hold together and exit, same as a quartering shot needs to do. But it should also work if placed behind the shoulder.
    Your question involves exactly what we have been discussing here about different alloys and hardness for each animal depending on the velocity.
    Take a .44, .45 or .475 with heavy hard cast boolits with a good meplat and I don't think it matters where the animal is hit as long as it is in a vital area.
    When you have to worry about where to hit an animal because of velocity, bullet/boolit construction, size of the animal and distance shot, then the problems are what we are trying to figure out at this time.
    It is no good if only a shoulder shot can be taken OR only a shot behind the shoulder instead. Since we discuss mostly revolvers that make it tough to place a shot exactly, unlike a rested rifle, it is more important to get it right.
    It still applies to a rifle although not as critical but you see for yourself, an elk bullet is wrong for a deer and the other way around too.
    As you see, high velocity puts a different equation into bullet selection whereas a big, heavy, slow boolit does most anything. Like a big round ball from a muzzle loader busts anything or a good revolver does anything as long as the velocity does not get ridiculous.
    Of all of the guns I have, I think the .475 Linebaugh can kill anything from a deer to a buf using only ONE hard cast boolit with a good meplat. The universal gun!
    So bear with us, all calibers and velocities are different.

  19. #59
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    BA bore
    I have a customer from Texas that is using the Old Lyman 462somethingorother HP on nilgi or something like that. I understand they are quite large. I cast his orders in acww and as I said the mold is HP. The HP pin goes the full length of the nose which must be about a third of the boolits length. I wish I had gotten more details when he called to tell me how well they worked. From what I remember he is using a single shot, I dont know the velocity but he is shooting smokless. No other details on terminal performance accept that the few he has shot have dropped to the shot without running. I seem to remember him saying that is very unusual for those animals. If you are not familier with that old Lyman design it is a bore rider with about 1/3 the boolit in bore ride nose. It has a large meplate with some radious at the juncture of the ogive and meplate.
    It is a very blunt (550gn in ww) long and heavy for caliber. He says he has shot with good accuracy out to 400 yards even though the profile looks rather inefficiant. There must be something to the slight radious at the edge of the meplate that is aiding to stability at longer range along with the weight to dampen any wobble.
    BIC/BS

  20. #60
    Boolit Master helice's Avatar
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    Dixie Slugs

    James,

    It took me a while to read thru this thread but I really enjoyed it. Your comments made me feel like I did when I read Veral's book the first 15 or 20 times. So much of what I believe about my pet boolits is just that -- "belief". I have very little to back up what I believe about my cast boolits. It was great enjoyment for me to read of someone who has real experience and obvious knowledge. Its great fun for me to share my "stuff" with the group when I can, but my reason for being here is to learn. Please James --- Keep Writin', cause when you're writin' I'm Learnin'. Helice

    P.S. Thanks for sharing your mold specs with us. They are a gift to be sure.
    P.P.S.S. Would that 35 caliber work well in a 350 Rem. Mag.?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check