.357 Elmer Keith Load

[Kosh75287]

Honorable mention for 7.8/Unique/158-160 RNFP-PC. 1286 f/s from my 4" Ruger, 1364 from my 6" S&W M28. It may not be QUITE the load that Uncle Elmer touted, but I find it a shade more controllable. I also wager that neither man nor beast could tell a difference between the two, if hit with either.

[50target]

Brian, the load in question is a very very hot load in a 38spl and honestly I wouldn't use it in a Colt Trooper. No offense to you but the internals aren't sturdy enough IMO. An earlier post mention was made of the bullet with 2 crimp grooves that allowed the bullet to be seated out further. That point is critical. If you load a regular SWC with one crimp groove you are probably treading on thin ice. In my younger days I did that and locked up an S&W K frame. Got it loose and shot it again with same results. Broke the rest of them down. My point is that if you are using this for bear protection and I hope you mean black bear, a locked up revolver isn't much good. If the bear is a species bigger than the black bear, then a less powerful load to use on yourself is more likely in order. Robert Frost, the poet, said humor is the last sign of seriousness. Bear business is serious business. I load 13.7 gr modern 2400 behind a 158 gr gc swc (357 Mag) and it is stout. Whether the 2400 is old or new isn't an issue. You should always work the loads up carefully whatever the powder is, even changing from one lot to another or changing primer brands. Tactikel in his post makes a very good point. Heavy frame guns only..
Lots of decisions to make but we're it me I would have to rethink where I hike until I got more adequate bear medicine. Pass along an old joke and I am not being irreverent as I am a person of faith but the Almighty calls us to be wise. Country Pastor had to walk through the woods to get to his weekly prayer meeting. Met a bear and it turned bad and when he got to the church they mended as best they could and someone asked if he prayed. Said he did but found out it was great for a prayer meeting but not much good for a bear meeting.
Stay safe both loading and hiking.

[Larry Gibson]

I have thoroughly pressure tested Skeeter's 357 load in 38 SPL cases using the 358156 over Alliant 2400. Suggest looking at post #1 in https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...n-38-SPL-Cases.

As you can see the 13.5 gr load is, indeed, "very stout" running at 37,900 psi which is above the SAMMI 35,000 psi MAP for the 357 magnum. I also do not recommend that load except in the Ruger BH, S&W M27/28, Colt Anaconda and other similar large frame 357 magnum revolvers. Years ago, before I could pressure test, I worked up to Skeeter's load in a Ruger BH. I found a load of 12.5 gr of Hercules 2400 was much more to my liking, was pleasant to shoot and very accurate. Testing with Alliant 2400 shows that load runs 33,200 psi in the test. I still find that load to be an excellent one and out of my 6" Ruger SS it runs 1250 fps with excellent accuracy.

I also have tested the 36-168K bullet (courtesy of Outpost75) which is similar to the 358421 bullet. The 169 gr bullet seated to the crimp groove with a heavy crimp in Winchester 38 SPL cases, WSP primers over 12 gr of Alliant 2400 the pressure ran 28,900 psi. It runs just over 1200 fps out of my 6" Ruger SS. That is what i would consider to be a top end 38/44 load.

Note; any seating depth [not to be confused with OAL] variation of other bullets used can and will have an effect on the pressure.

[beltfed]

FWIW,
Note quite re. 38-357 . But:
Back in the '80s, when I was shooting Handgun Silhouette, using my M29 44mags
I had been using the classic Elmer Keith load of 22 gr (old) 2400 under "his" 429421 bullet to good effect
BUT, on hot days, I encountered higher primer pressure signs, though extraction was still OK.
I then went from the Double Base 2400 to the single base IMR 4227, loaded accordingly to about same velocity. 1330fps across my Oehler 33.

I also switched to IMR4227 from 2400 in my 357 revolver and rifle.
beltfed/arnie

[curiousgeorge]

Back in the late 70's 357 brass was scarce around here, so I did load some of the Skeeter load of #358156 in in 38 special cases with 13.5 grs of 2400. Have only shot them in Ruger Blackhawks, but stopped loading due to concerns that one could find it's way into a 38 special gun if something suddenly happened to me and the fact that 357 cases started becoming more available.

[robg]

I use that load under a 165gn gc boolit in my trapper works well and accurate.spent ages getting to that load then i read Elmers book could have saved so much time ,oh well.

[gunther]

A related problem not addressed, is that , if you use a lot of ammo loaded in 38 special brass, in a 357 revolver, you better clean the cylinders regularly and like you mean it.The crud buildup in the chambers ahead of those 38 cases may give you trouble. Like blown primers with factory ammo. Personal experience....

[1hole]

ED'S LAW: IF YOU NEED MAXIMUM LOADS, YOU NEED A BIGGER CALIBER!

Elmer Keith's Cartridge Law - seconded by myself - is if you need to load much ammo down you really need a smaller caliber. Today we have so many burn rate powders that it really isn't necessary to load to the ragged edge of a KABOOM! in order to make and safely use full power ammo. Any quality firearm will, or should, last a very long time with full power normal-for-the-caliber ammo. IMHO.

[Alferd Packer]

Google Lymans 3rd Ed. cast Bullet manual online and download it for Free.
Get your loads and then delete it from computer or cell phone memory.
Best to verify those loads first.
There are loads using 2400 powder in there if you can find the powder.

[sniper]

Some time in the past, I tried the "Skeeter load", Just to see. New 2400, 13.5 gr., 357 Magnum brass, 158 gr SWC, small pistol primer, S&W 586, 4" barrel. Hoo BOY! Eargesplitten Loudenboomer! I decided that i'd rather shoot somewhat milder loads.

Skeeter came along some time during Elmer's heyday, and likely "borrowed" a load or three from Elmer's writings, because they worked for him! Reliable loading manuals were somewhat thin on the ground back then. Lyman was there, but others?

He was a Border Patrol officer for much of his career, and they weren't paid a lot. He was on the pistol team, so had access to scads of free once-fired .38 special brass. 357 Magnum brass was hard to come by, and expen$ive, so he used what he had.

It seemed to me that Skeeter's value was in finding loads that worked for his jobs at the time...the "cow killer" load, and the one he used to shoot a Yucca plant for a friend. His telling of a shootout with some criminals, that when the air had cleared, all they found was a hat with a bullet hole in the crown reminded me of my police officer uncle's tale of shooting several times at his reflection in a mirror when he investigated an open door in a dimly lit store.

I think some of his best was supposedly written at a bar, whose name I can never remember at Hachita, New Mexico. Hachita, N.M. actually exists! I liked it when he and Dobe Grant started reminiscing. I think we shall sadly never see the like of Skeeter and Elmer again.

[GLynn41]

The load was never intended to be used in a .38 it is a .357 round only - and was in a .38 special to allow it to be used in a shorter .357 mag cylinders. Thanks for the pressure data Larry. I sometimes wish I had gotten into that years ago-- but did not and stayed with just a chrono. Any way thanks

[Thumbcocker]

13.5 of 2400 under a 160 grain rnfp in MAGNUM brass is the go to .357 load around here.

[brassrat]

I have some 158 gr XTPs loaded up but just stored. 15.5 gr. of, yr. 2010 or so 2400 powder. I have shot a few, but only in my Dan Wesson, with no problems. They are stout and not for .38s, thats for sure.

[robg]

used 2400 since early 80s hercules seems the same as the new alliant in my guns.