Contenders and cast boolits dont mix

[35remington]

My experiences have been pretty much like BCB's; some T/C's shoot cast well, others are completely horrible.

All are good jacketed bullet shooters, so if it shoots the jacketed bullet there is no reason to assume it will be competent with cast. "Poor shooters" in my definition can't do better than around 1.5 inches at 50. Frankly, for what I do, even that's marginal. A lot of my Contender barrels are in small game calibers, so what is passable for deer hunting under 200 yards doesn't meet my criteria for acceptable accuracy.

My suggestion would be to avoid T/C Custom shop barrels as lead bullet shooters unless T/C can provide detailed information about barrel and chamber dimensions in your selected caliber beforehand. Even then, I'd be leery.

I'd just like to re-emphasize that you don't necessarily have to give up on a barrel, but if the good folks here cannot help you, then consider either modifying the barrel (with no guarantee of good results) or simply relegate it to jacketed bullets only. If your T/C experience turns out like mine you WILL run into barrels that will not shoot lead no matter what you try.

Having a barrel that won't shoot lead absolutely galls me, though, so some of my Contender non-shooters got rechambered to other calibers, cleaning up the chamber and throat dimensions to the point where they now work fine. My 25-20, for example, is now a 25-35. However, after that's done, you'll have enough money invested in the barrel that you should have purchased another brand of aftermarket barrel (instead of the T/C) in the first place.

I have also heard that T/C doesn't stress relieve the barrels after welding on the lugs, or does it in such a way that the barrels are stressed. My .25-20 groups, cast or jacketed, would go completely wild whenever the barrel got even a little past lukewarm. My .25-20 and .22 K-Hornet T/C barrels (among others) are the biggest turkeys for lead I've ever encountered, but the K shoots select jacketed loads so well I've left it alone.

My 7-30 Waters barrel is pretty good with cast, though, and my .35 Remington barrel shoots lead just as well as jacketed. I hope you've got one like these, and a little load refinement improves things for you.

[jeff223]

thanks for all the input on this cast boolit shooting.itsnice to have so many willing to post on this.

some good info about TC barrels too from guys that have them.its just hard for me to figure out why mine shoot jacketed so good and then shoot so bad with cast.i think it would be nice to have a cast shooter but that no big deal if i dont.im going to try a differant powder and slow things down some.if my barrel shoots then i will speed things up some.if no accuracy with the slow loads im going to scrap the whole cast boolit idea and shoot the jacketed bullets that i have in the past.

thanks once again

[44man]

I have seen some TC's that were tack drivers and some real dogs with any bullet. TC has never got it all together and I will never buy another. They used to put on a new barrel with no questions, but no more.
My friend bought one of the new TC hawkin rifles with the easy start muzzle. We tried every boolit and ball and every powder and charge. We could not keep it on paper at 50 yd's. He sent it back and all they did was bend the keys to hold it in the stock tighter, still would not shoot. He called them and they gave him nothing but static. It took many calls and a lot of cussing them out for them to agree to change the barrel. It shot worse then the first one and we did everything we could including glass bedding it. A real piece of crap!
However, all the contenders that I have been involved with that shot jacketed good also shot cast. I can understand why some of you do have trouble knowing how bad some TC's are. You are all shedding new light on just why I hate them so much. I did not know about the different chambering dimensions. I only owned one and it was unbelievable with a cast boolit. All of my friends didn't shoot cast but some were also very accurate with either bullet but some just would not shoot anything.
I figured from my experience that one that shot jacketed very well would also shoot cast but now you are teaching me that it just doesn't work that way.
Another reason why I will never again buy anything made by TC.

[jeff223]

44man im going to try to get one of theseto shoot cast good and if i do i will le everyone know n way or the other

im not a pistol fan at all and i have no use for them but i do love the hand rifles.CONTENDERS and ENCORES fall into ths catagory .i love it when im at the range shooting and i leave the rifle shootres scratching thier heads when a Contender out shoots them.sightin days at the range right before the deer firearm really brings out the crowd and i try to be there shooting my tc contender.scratching heads when most leave but im shooting jacketed bullets then

[44man]

It's fun, I have seen guys with rifles leave the range after seeing some of my groups from pistols. My MOA will shoot 5 shots in 3/8" at 100 yd's and my Witchita 7R has shot 1" groups at 200 meters. The Contender I had was super but I don't trust TC to make two guns the same. If you have a good one, keep it. Seems as if TC just throws a piece of steel at a machine and whatever comes out the other end goes on a gun. No accuracy standards, no test firing and no rejects. God have mercy if they have to scrap a barrel!

[Nrut]

Jeff.....In the eigthy's I shot a factory 10" .357 SM T/C with a load out of IHMSA's news letter....In my T/C with a 2X scope on a rest it would ave. 1 1/4" (5 shot) at 100 yds.
the load was
1. H4227 (not IMR as I tried it and it did'nt shoot near as good)
2. bullet was either 200gr. RCBS or Lyman...(I used RCBS)
3. bullet sized .358
4. I don't recall the bullet hardness,lube(LBT Blue I think), powder charge,dies used or primer type...
I found when I got away from using 296 & H110 and started using heavier bullets and H4227 my .357SM would shot like a house afire....wish I could be more help but left my T/C's and data in the states when I moved up here to Canada....good luck mic

[jeff223]

thanks for your input

H4227 is the next on my list to try

[Johnch]

Jeff in my custom 357 mag .
I use slightly reduced loads and seat the bullet out to ingrave in the rifling when I close it .

It closes a little hard , but the results are worth it .
But the loaded round normaly will not extract with out extractor dammage , so I fire every round I chamber .

I didn't tell you about this before because few guys are willing to mess around .

Johnch

[jeff223]

going to try some cast again.i found out i had a scope problem.well let you know how they shoot with a differant scope once the weather breaks again.its cold out side here in Michigan right now

[357maximum]

Yes Jeff it is cold here in Michigan, personally I think you got contenderidous, some of their barrels are dogs. Keep the frame if you cannot get it to work egouge the barrel and think about a custom barrel. Match Grade Machine (a.k.a virgin valley) will make you anything you want, and their barrels make a mirror look rough. Bullberry and Ott make good ones too, but MGM is more attuned to the customer. My 357 max encore will (so far) digest anything I have launched with it. It is a little tight bore wise and sizing to 358 with 158 to 200 grainers has worked well with it, and it has a throat not a t/c forcing cone. Their (TC) rifle and pistol barrels remind me more of a shotgun forcing cone, not a throat. I ordered my throat a little short, but my 185 grainer from the mountain man works excellent. I ordered the mold according to my throat with a 385 nose length, the lead is actually engraved at loading. (my dad tried this in his herret and got higher pressures than normal, he backed of charge and he actually got the same velocity with less powder) So far the 4227 works for best for me ( about a 98% load) seems to be less temp sensitive too "extreme". I cannot get enough AA1680 in the case to even get close to max.

Jeff where you at here in Granholms' lair?
Little north of Lansing along 127 corridor here.

[lovedogs]

Personally, I love my Contender. I've only got a half dozen barrels on hand at present. All I've had is good luck with them so far. Only recently have I tried cast bullets in them and then only in a Super 14 stainless .44 mag. Weather here is still too cold to do much in the way of real testing, but so far it looks like it'll work out just fine. I'm into long-range buffalo rifles and silhouettes at a half mile and lately have gotten the crazy idea that I can shoot that course with my Contender .44. Friends say nix, but I'm doing okay out to 500 yds. so far. When weather improves I plan on going to the 876 yd. mark and trying it with cast 250 gr. Saeco cast bullets.

A good source for knowledgable input and good quality work on all T/C's is Mike Bellm in Oregon. His e-mail is mike@bellmtcs.com He straightens out all sorts of problems and can probably answer any questions you might have on your T/C's.

[versifier]

Just so you know, (and I am not sure of the current situation), but T/C would often have their Contender blanks drilled, reamed, and rifled elsewhere. In the 80's, you could tell then by the direction of twist: T/C's had a left hand twist, and GM (oops, I wasn't supposed to mention them by name; bad, bad Tom, go lay down!) used a right hand twist and would shoot much better groups. This does not address the chambering/throating issue and is not intended to, but it may shed some light on one reason why some of them are more cast friendly than others.
I know I've talked about this before, but I think it bears repeating here. It comes down to the issue of the care taken in drilling and the number of steps involved in the reaming process by different barrel makers. It is a common misconception that pushing or pulling a button through a barrel smoothes all of the tool marks out of it. Yes, metal is displaced and it does have to go somewhere, and some smoothing out does take place, but not so much that it can make up for poor preparation of the blank. The "sharper" or more precisely ground the deep hole drill, the fewer and shallower the spiral grooves that are left by it. It is not uncommon however to wait until they start to howl before resharpening. (You can tell the status of the bit by the sound it makes as it is pushed into the spinning blank.) So, in any run, there are some blanks that are smoother than others right from the outset. Next, the reaming process can be done in one, two, or three (more, too, but not necessarily economically) stages. Reamers get dull, too, though they do not need resharpening as often as do the drills, and every resharpening reduces their diameter slightly. The newest and largest (finish diameter) are the last ones used, but the more metal they are forced to remove, the rougher a surface they leave, that's why it is best done in progressive stages. Even the best reaming job will not remove the deepest spirals left by the dullest drills completely, but they will clean up the minimal marks left by a sharp drill very nicely. Then the blanks are thoroughly cleaned out, coated with a special teflon lube, and buttoned. The better barrel makers will air guage or borescope their barrels at this point and grade them all, but for commercial producers, they are just checked randomly (probably so the borescope doesn't gather too much dust), then crated and shipped to the gunmaker's factory for contouring, finishing, fitting, and chambering. I don't believe that many firms stress relieve their barrels, as the conventional wisdom is that you disturb (stress) it by drilling, etc., then you "balance" those stresses by machining the outside of it, too. It never, in all honesty, made a lot of sense to me at the time, but I shut up and did what I was told and we made some damned accurate barrels that set an impressive amount of records over the years in the guns of a surprising list of major companies, none of whom would ever admit to outsourcing their blanks.
The long and short of it all is that you can supposedly "break in" a rougher barrel by putting a lot of jacketed loads through it and get them to shoot respectably, but it is my opinion that some of these tool marks are filled with copper or gilding metal, and when thoroughly cleaned prior to shooting with cast, this "smoothness" is sometimes removed. It would certainly help to make the case for abrasive or fire lapping if true, and would also help to explain why some good shooters with jacketed won't perform with cast boolits at all.

[44man]

Thank you, that was very informative. Ruger rifles had the same problem until they started making their own barrels.

[versifier]

Who says they make all their own barrels? Besides their marketing people that is? I have a hard time believing it, as I do with any company that makes such an improbable claim. Most make some.

[Lloyd Smale]

everybody told me a contendor in 45/410 wont shoot too. But i bought my old man a encore for his 70th birthday and with a rcbs 255 cast out of #2 sized to 452 loaded with 9 grains of unique and a fed primmer it shoots into an inch at 25 with the crude shotgun type sights. Play around enough with just about any gun and you can find something that works

[joeb33050]

I had a Contender for over 20 years, barrels in 32-20, 7TCU, 6.5TCU, 30-30 and 30-30 Carbine. Probably others. I never got it to shoot cast bullets to average under 3" at 100 yards, although some barresl shot some jacketed bullets very well.
I sold it, now have a Savage Striker and a Competitor, pistols.
The Competitor allows changing barrels and extractors if needed easily, the Striker allows barrel and bolt head switching easily--neither as easily or fast as changing Contender/Encore barrels.
With either the Striker 308 Win or Competitor 30BR I can reliably shoot 5 shot 5 group averages under 2" at 100 yards with cast bullets.
Given the way these pistols shoot, and the ease of changing barrels and cartridges, I don't know why anyone uses a Contender or Encore any more for serious long range accuracy work.
joe b. Democrat and shooter

[jimb16]

I've got 8 TC barrels myself. The only one I get leading with is the .44 mag and that is only with my HOT deer load. It is an extremely accurate load, but it leads horribly. But then I only need one shot at a time! Mine include .22 rf, 2-7TCU (One pistol one rifle), .222 Rem, .223 Rem, 44 mag. and .45 colt plus a .410 shotgun barrel. Cast bullets in all......

[44man]

These were shot at 100 yards with the TC 30-30 I had. The problem was it copper and lead fouled so bad it was a real chore to clean.
I tried this boolit without a gas check once and all shots key holed at 50 meters.
I sold the gun to a friend and when spotting for him at an IHMSA shoot, the boolit would swing clear over to the next ram and swing back to hit the one he was shooting at. Both of us went nuts with windage adjustments at other ranges.

[leadman]

I had trouble with my rechambered 44 mag barrel in 445 SM until I switched from Red Angel to LBT Blue Soft. Shot much better with no leading.
Then I had it rechambered to 444 Marlin. It shot fantastic with the 265gr Hornady and real well (2 to 3") at 100 yards with the Lee 310gr RFN at 1,900 fps. This left debris in the barrel that pushed out with a patch. Wanted to use it on elk but never got the chance.
the 310gr would shoot 1 to 2" at 100yards with a reduced load at about 1,600fps.

I think LLA is not an adequate lube to use in a Contender with his cartridges. There are many good lubes that should help you out. Lar's BAC can be easily applied by hand and he is a sponsor here and reasonable prices.

I also have not had the best results with 296 in these cartridges. The surplus WC680 seems to be better. Don't know how this compares with 1680.

I have also used 4198 for reduced velocity cast loads, along with Rel7.

As mentioned, Mike Bellm has many articles on his website that may help you out.

[bobthenailer]

had a contender in 32/20 and 7mm tcu both refused to shoot cast bullets , i tried different sizing dia , 2 bullets in the 32/20 , which shoot excellent in my rpm xl in 32.20 and about 7 different powders! in the tcu 4 different bullets and 8 powders none shoot well enough to use in a match . but they shoot well in my 7mm ishma, but both barrels shot jackated bullets excellent . i sold both barrels but i still have 2 hornets & a 22 lr match but i only shoot jacketed in the hornets