Looking at a Substitute for Blue Dot in .223 Reduced Loads

[dverna]

I have been reading some old stuff from Seafire and his work with Blue Dot in the .223. The testing Seafire did showed about 2400 fps with 11 gr of BD with 55 gr bullets.

I have one pound of BD and that is not enough if I can get the good accuracy. BD is not available anywhere and I doubt Alliant will offer it anytime soon. I want a powder that will burn almost completely in a 16" barrel. Rifle will have a suppressor. I am looking at Vihtavuori 3N38 or Winchester 572 as options as they are currently available.

Any thoughts on this or other options?

TIAA

[shell70634]

I use acc 2520, mainly because I can get acceptable accuracy in 223, 308, and 30-06. And it's cheaper and available.

[NObamain2012]

I use 9.5 grains of Herco and a 35 grain J-word for 2,700 FPS. I would NOT use a dense ball powder for such loads.

[Barry54]

3N38 is extruded, but fine grained. I got it for 1200 FPS 147 grain 9mm loads. Published by Vihtavuori.

I’d put together some test loads and send over the Caldwell chronograph, if someone would give us a starting load from quickload.

Any particular 55 grain bullet you have a fondness for? I think I’ve got a heap of Nosler soft points.

Faster powders and lighter charges are well suited for suppressor use, from what research tells me.

[dverna]

3N38 is extruded, but fine grained. I got it for 1200 FPS 147 grain 9mm loads. Published by Vihtavuori.

I’d put together some test loads and send over the Caldwell chronograph, if someone would give us a starting load from quickload.

Any particular 55 grain bullet you have a fondness for? I think I’ve got a heap of Nosler soft points.

Faster powders and lighter charges are well suited for suppressor use, from what research tells me.

I hope to use the 55 gr Hornady Soft Point. I have 6k of them but lots of other flavors too.

[barsik]

according to the reloading powder burn rate in my reloading manual accurate #7 and VV N350 have the same burn rate as blue dot. VV 3N37 is just a bit faster and longshot is just a bit slower. data was taken from the LEE modern reloading handbook second edition.

[405grain]

A couple of years ago I used to shoot blue dot loads in 223 with 50 grain Nosler lead free bullets. These loads worked OK, but I've since developed a better load. Now I'm shooting 55 grain V-max bullets with a 12.0 grain load of VV 3N38. With a 26" barrel on a Savage 110 varmint rifle I'm getting around 2600 fps, and 1/2" groups at 100 yards. 3N38 meters much better than blue dot, it burns cleaner, is less likely to pressure spike at top loads, and is more accurate. These loads should be good for dusting off sage rats, and the V-max bullet is advertised to expand explosively down to 1600 fps. A 12.0 grain load of 3N38, with no fillers needed, should work fine with the 55 grain Hornady soft point.

[dverna]

A couple of years ago I used to shoot blue dot loads in 223 with 50 grain Nosler lead free bullets. These loads worked OK, but I've since developed a better load. Now I'm shooting 55 grain V-max bullets with a 12.0 grain load of VV 3N38. With a 26" barrel on a Savage 110 varmint rifle I'm getting around 2600 fps, and 1/2" groups at 100 yards. 3N38 meters much better than blue dot, it burns cleaner, is less likely to pressure spike at top loads, and is more accurate. These loads should be good for dusting off sage rats, and the V-max bullet is advertised to expand explosively down to 1600 fps. A 12.0 grain load of 3N38, with no fillers needed, should work fine with the 55 grain Hornady soft point.

Perfect. Thanks for the details and sharing your experience.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

A couple of years ago I used to shoot blue dot loads in 223 with 50 grain Nosler lead free bullets. These loads worked OK, but I've since developed a better load. Now I'm shooting 55 grain V-max bullets with a 12.0 grain load of VV 3N38. With a 26" barrel on a Savage 110 varmint rifle I'm getting around 2600 fps, and 1/2" groups at 100 yards. 3N38 meters much better than blue dot, it burns cleaner, is less likely to pressure spike at top loads, and is more accurate. These loads should be good for dusting off sage rats, and the V-max bullet is advertised to expand explosively down to 1600 fps. A 12.0 grain load of 3N38, with no fillers needed, should work fine with the 55 grain Hornady soft point.

Sorry for the thread drift, but have you tried the 3N38 in larger calibers such as the 308 win, 30-06, etc.?

[dverna]

Sorry for the thread drift, but have you tried the 3N38 in larger calibers such as the 308 win, 30-06, etc.?

No problem. In fact I am working on reduced loads for the .308 with fast powders so it would be valuable information.

Why use twice as many gr of H4895 when half as much of a faster powder gives the same velocity but burns cleaner and more completely in shorter barrels? Plus, it saves money.

[rbuck351]

I think I would try 2400. Currently I am using H116 in 55gr cast. It's about the same as W 680 and Acc 1680.

[P Flados]

Quickload thinks that all the powders below can get 2400 fps with ok chamber pressures and 100% burn.

Given the suppressed application, take a look a the muzzle pressures below and see how much less you get with faster powders.

Cartridge          : .223 Rem. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .224, 55, Hornady SP 2265
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length      : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Accurate No.5                       44.0     10.8     0.70    2400   100.0    42547    5581   0.879
Shooters World Auto Pistol          44.0     10.8     0.70    2400   100.0    42526    5582   0.880
Vihtavuori N105 *C                  62.5     11.6     0.75    2400   100.0    39365    5712   0.921
Hodgdon HS-6                        49.8     11.7     0.76    2400   100.0    45938    5370   0.854
Vihtavuori 3N38                     61.2     11.9     0.77    2400   100.0    38877    5771   0.913
Alliant BLUE DOT                    61.7     11.9     0.77    2400   100.0    35397    6255   0.949
Accurate No.7                       46.9     12.0     0.78    2400   100.0    36063    6129   0.945
Shooters World Major Pistol         46.9     12.0     0.78    2400   100.0    36063    6129   0.945
Accurate TCM                        52.1     12.8     0.83    2400   100.0    34931    6336   0.949
Shooters World Heavy Pistol         50.9     13.0     0.84    2400   100.0    34339    6467   0.960
Accurate No.9                       51.4     13.0     0.84    2400   100.0    34339    6467   0.960

[P Flados]

And if you are willing to accept just a little less, you can go with even faster powders

Cartridge          : .223 Rem. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .224, 55, Hornady SP 2265
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length      : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Accurate No.2                       57.0      9.0     0.58    2250   100.0    42571    4611   0.905
Vihtavuori N330                     60.4      9.4     0.61    2250   100.0    47422    4506   0.864  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N340                     60.2      9.5     0.62    2250   100.0    43591    4598   0.886
Winchester 231                      54.1      9.7     0.63    2250   100.0    47737    4529   0.859  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Zip                         48.6      9.7     0.63    2250   100.0    47737    4529   0.859  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.5                       39.3      9.7     0.63    2250   100.0    34739    5090   0.965
Shooters World Auto Pistol          39.3      9.7     0.63    2250   100.0    34722    5091   0.965
Vihtavuori N350                     57.5     10.0     0.65    2250   100.0    38815    4794   0.921
Ramshot Silhouette                  48.1     10.0     0.65    2250   100.0    40946    4748   0.903
Vihtavuori 3N37                     54.8     10.1     0.65    2250   100.0    38225    4853   0.930
Ramshot True Blue                   42.8     10.3     0.67    2250   100.0    38562    4826   0.927
Hodgdon Longshot                    43.1     10.3     0.67    2250   100.0    38366    4839   0.928
Hodgdon HS-6                        44.4     10.4     0.68    2250   100.0    37326    4892   0.939
Vihtavuori N105 *C                  56.2     10.5     0.68    2250   100.0    31938    5267   1.001
Vihtavuori 3N38                     55.0     10.7     0.69    2250   100.0    31733    5328   0.991
Alliant BLUE DOT                    55.8     10.8     0.70    2250   100.0    29207    5810   1.026

[Zadokite]

I use AA#9 The lyman manual lists it for a 55g cast bullet. 11.0g 55g Lee cast bullet, P/C'd, PMC case, CCI primer 16 in barrel 2176 fps w/ S/D 18.0 VERY accurate.

[405grain]

Silvercreek Farmer; I have not tried 3N38 in any other cartridges besides 223. The 12.0 grain 3N38 load in the 223 mimics the 218 Bee, which is an ideal round for shooting ground squirrels out to 250 yards.

[dverna]

Quickload thinks that all the powders below can get 2400 fps with ok chamber pressures and 100% burn.

Given the suppressed application, take a look a the muzzle pressures below and see how much less you get with faster powders.

Cartridge          : .223 Rem. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .224, 55, Hornady SP 2265
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length      : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Accurate No.5                       44.0     10.8     0.70    2400   100.0    42547    5581   0.879
Shooters World Auto Pistol          44.0     10.8     0.70    2400   100.0    42526    5582   0.880
Vihtavuori N105 *C                  62.5     11.6     0.75    2400   100.0    39365    5712   0.921
Hodgdon HS-6                        49.8     11.7     0.76    2400   100.0    45938    5370   0.854
Vihtavuori 3N38                     61.2     11.9     0.77    2400   100.0    38877    5771   0.913
Alliant BLUE DOT                    61.7     11.9     0.77    2400   100.0    35397    6255   0.949
Accurate No.7                       46.9     12.0     0.78    2400   100.0    36063    6129   0.945
Shooters World Major Pistol         46.9     12.0     0.78    2400   100.0    36063    6129   0.945
Accurate TCM                        52.1     12.8     0.83    2400   100.0    34931    6336   0.949
Shooters World Heavy Pistol         50.9     13.0     0.84    2400   100.0    34339    6467   0.960
Accurate No.9                       51.4     13.0     0.84    2400   100.0    34339    6467   0.960

That is great information. Thanks.