Perrin 12 mm?????

[fordwannabe]

This is my best chance to gather any information on a revolving rifle I just got. It is a Perrin carbine in a 12mm cartridge. If any of you know anything about this gun and specifically how to make shootable ammo Please let me know. Thank you. Tom

[buckdeer]

There is some articles on " forgotten weapons" that show pics of the perrin cartridges they have an internal firing pin and a very thick rim not sure how u would make them

[lar45]

https://cartridgecollector.net/cartr...rin-long-case/





Is this it?

If it was me, I would start with a chamber cast. I like to try and get about 3/4" of rifling infront of the chamber with the chamber cast. Then you can get a good look at the throat and can measure the grooves and lands accurately.

Measure the base of the chamber and see what parent case might work.
12mm = about .472" Maybe 45-70 to start with?
Cut to length.
make a little brass washer to slide up the case next to the rim and solder with a low temp solder? Or locktite? Locktite might break loose as the brass expands during firing.
So maybe solder with low temp solder.
It's probably a Black Powder round, so pressures are going to be low anyway.

Do a chamber cast, draw a picture, write down measurements, post a picture. I'd be more than happy to help.
I made ammo for my Pinfire 70 Cal Double barrel Pistol. Yours is centerfire, should be easy.

Okay, I'm asleep, it's a revolving rifle. So just measure the cylinder and then slug the barrel?

[fordwannabe]

Buckdeer, thanks for the reply. I watched those. The rim I may be able to overcome but the internal firing pin???? I read somewhere that some had exposed primers. Won’t know exactly what I have until I pick it up tomorrow. Thanks again for a reply.

[fordwannabe]

Lar45 thank you also for the reply. See y’all do know stuff! The picture you posted look pretty close can’t say for sure as I will pick it up tomorrow but that’s pretty close except the wood on mine either is a civilian spotter or more likely was sporterized. I VERY MUCH APPRECIATE the offer of help. Probably gonna need it as I think I am WAY over my head here but I LOVE weird guns and oddball calibers. Can’t hep it.

[Mk42gunner]

...I LOVE weird guns and oddball calibers. Can’t hep it.

Weird guns and oddball calibers are a recipe for learning. Sometimes you learn why a particular gun was not a commercial success, sometimes you wonder why this one didn't make it.

Anybody, well almost anybody, can get a .38 Special or .45-70 to shoot well, your Perrin will take a bit more effort.

Robert

[lar45]

I had another thought. If it's close to 45-70-ish Then maybe a belted mag or 450 Marlin case might work without having to solder on the case head.

[rbuck351]

Once you find a suitable case I would find some brass or even steel shim of the right thickness punch hole a couple thousands under the brass base size and press the shim on the base and then turn the shim down to the proper rim size.

[StrawHat]

This Perrin revolver was built in 1860. The six rounds show the very thick rim.

Kevin

[lar45]

fordwannabe, did your rifle come in yet?

[K43]

The early Perrins were pin fire (inside primed) but the later examples have a regular external primer. I don't know if the original external primers were Berdan or Boxer, but that doesn't matter if you are making your own. There are many examples on the Intl. Cartridge Collectors' Board.

[relics6165]

The early Perrins were centerfire, but the cartridge cases were inside primed, just like early United States centerfire military ammunition. The first Trapdoor ammo was inside primed, 58 Musket, 50-70, 45-70, as was 45 Colt, 45 S&W Schofield, and 44 Colt. Not too much later, the standard was changed to centerfire cases as we know them today with an external primer.

I'm thinking, because of the thick Perrin rim, your best bet would be to come up with some lathe turned cases.

[fordwannabe]

Yes I was able to pick it up. Wahoo. One of the guys at the gunshop was able to find dimensional drawings of the round (in French) and it looks like a 44 special case will be pretty close except fot the rim. The brass shim washer idea is pretty much what we are thinking at this point. I still have not found a bullet weight yet. And they were a heeled bullet like my 32 colt sooo probably need a custom mold unless any of you happen to have a mold laying around for a 12 mm Perrin and you want to sell some bullets. I will TRY to post pics of the rifle today.

[lar45]

If you could measure the inside of the cylinder with a dial caliper that will get us closer.
There should be a deep recess for the rim. Measure the diameter of that also. If you can, measure the depth with the back end of the dial caliper. And also if there's a gap between the rear of the cylinder and the frame. This will go into calculating the rim thickness.
I assume the chambers are bored straight through?
We'll need the length of the cylinder for the cartridge length.
If you can slug the barrel that will give us the bullet diameter.
You can measure the twist rate with a tight patch and a cleaning rod. Put the caliber and twist rare into a stability calculator will give us the bullet length and the weight from there.
If you can't find a heel based mold, maybe a hollow base?

[Mr Hanssen]

From www.municion.org

[relics6165]

If it's close to a 44 Special, and all you need is a thick rim, an O ring of the correct dimensions might work, at least to get you started.

[BP Dave]

Bullets for 11mm French Ordnance revolver might work--depending on your dimensions. In that era, manufacturers didn't seem to distinguish very clearly between 11mm and 12mm revolver rounds. If you can find such bullets, of course--a mold might be your best option.

Also, if you're looking for a bayonet, the Bayonet Connection may have just what you need. There would be an associated cost.

[lar45]

Yep, all we would need is some actual measurements and that old beast could shoot again.