wc820 and 44 lyman devistator

[emptyhead]

I have been shooting this bullet with a load of 21 grns of wc820 out of a ruger sb and it chrono at about 1300 fps. The load is brisk to say the least. The problem I'm having is that my primers are starting to flatten. Any of you guys running into his problem. Bullets are szed to .430

[Lloyd Smale]

My go to load for that bullet is 22 grains of 820. Havent noticed flatten primers but i wouldnt sweat it as thats not a real good indication of pressure in a handgun anyway. what can happen is when a handgun is shot the primer can back out slightly and then when the case slams against the recoil shield i flattens primers. Sticky extraction is what you mostly want to guage excessive pressure in a handgun with. that been said i dont run them that hard out of a smith. About 19 is as high as i go in them.

[emptyhead]

Thanks Llyod I was just a little worried I was pushing it to hard or doing something wrong.

[trickyasafox]

I wanted to cook up a hunting load for my encore with 820. I think you guys just gave me everything I need!

what weight bullet are you all running? I wanted to run 240s.

[BD]

I don't know what a devastator weighs, but I've been loading 21.5 grains of my lot of WC 820 under a 265 grain WFN for years out of my 6" DW. Be wary of different lots of WC 820, mine is the older "H110 equivalent", most of the more recent lots are more like AA #9.
BD

[emptyhead]

My bullet is about at 260 with lube and gas check.

[Lloyd Smale]

BD thats a good point. A guy using surplus has to do it with his eyes open! Burning rates can change substantialy betwee lots. Using someones elses internet loads without working up slowly can get you in trouble. trickyasafox, I run the rcbs 240 swcgc with 22 grains of my 820. that bullet is by far the best midrange weight swc ive found for accuarcy in all of my 44s. It also runs well in a marlin lever 44.

[BD]

Working up surplus loads is not often as simple as finding an "equivalent" and then just using that data. What is "equivalent" in one cartridge with one bullet weight may not be so close in another cartridge, or even with a different boolit weight in the same cartridge.

And, there may be better methods for working up surplus loads than what I've been doing, but my way has worked for me so far. For what it's worth I'll post it again:

I buy, (or beg), enough of the nearest canister equivalent to do a load work up for several bullet weights in the cartridge of interest. For WC820, I used H110. For WC 852s I used IMR 4831 and H4831. For WC680 I used 1680. The key is to choose an "equivalent" powder which has good load data for the cartridge and bullet you're interested in.

Starting low, I load equivalent loads of the surplus and canister powder and shoot the increments over the chrony, working my way up and watching the results. I do this for a range of bullet weights in the cartridge trying boolits that are both lighter and heavier than the weight I'm interested in. With my lot of WC820 my loads chronied right alongside H110 with 180 grain .44 "flying ashtrays", and 200 grain SWCs. With the 240 grain SWCs the low end started out similar, but the WC820 hit the high end earlier than the H110. With the 265 grainers the WC820 was .1 grain faster on the low end and .2 grain faster on the high end. With the Lee 310 the picture was different, with WC820 clocking much closer to AA#9 than H110. I didn't have any boolits in the 280-300 grain range available to try.

What I learned was that my lot of WC 820 is very close to H110 at weights under 240 grains in the .44 mag, but acts much more like AA#9 as the boolit weights increase.

A couple of of topic examples: my work up with WC852s directed at 140 grain condoms in the 6.5x55 showed that the surplus fell exactly between the two 4831s, (and was more accurate than either, I later had the opportunity to have those loads pressure tested and found out that while the WC852s fell in between in velocity, it was doing so at 8% higher pressure. With the 120 grainers it was also a match in velocity, but at 5% lower pressure. Who'd a thunk it? I also spent some time working up a full house load using WC860 in the .270 WBY mag only to discard it after discovering the large velocity variation due to temperature in that loading. Just not worth it in a cartridge that operates so close to the max, and is used only to hunt.

So it may be a more complicated relationship than you'd like. And it's well worth the time doing some controlled experimentation with a range of loads before you extrapolate your way into anything close to the max. Keep in mind that it's not just boolit weight driving the pressure bus in the straight wall handgun cartridges. The amount of boolit in the case, decreasing the combustion volume, also plays a big role, so a 260 grain HP to a 260 grain WFN is not going to be an apples to apples comparison either.

Take your time, be careful, and have some fun with it. And if you do find "the load", buy 32 lbs of that lot while you still can.

BD

[30hrrtt]

BD

Can you share what lot number of 820 you were using?

Thanks
Dan

[mike in co]

there is a significant spread in 820 lots...
my lot is like slow accurate no 9...........

so unless you post your lot number...it is comparing apples to oranges


mike in co

[Dale53]

Working up surplus loads is not often as simple as finding an "equivalent" and then just using that data. What is "equivalent" in one cartridge with one bullet weight may not be so close in another cartridge, or even with a different boolit weight in the same cartridge.

And, there may be better methods for working up surplus loads than what I've been doing, but my way has worked for me so far. For what it's worth I'll post it again:

I buy, (or beg), enough of the nearest canister equivalent to do a load work up for several bullet weights in the cartridge of interest. For WC820, I used H110. For WC 852s I used IMR 4831 and H4831. For WC680 I used 1680. The key is to choose an "equivalent" powder which has good load data for the cartridge and bullet you're interested in.

Starting low, I load equivalent loads of the surplus and canister powder and shoot the increments over the chrony, working my way up and watching the results. I do this for a range of bullet weights in the cartridge trying boolits that are both lighter and heavier than the weight I'm interested in. With my lot of WC820 my loads chronied right alongside H110 with 180 grain .44 "flying ashtrays", and 200 grain SWCs. With the 240 grain SWCs the low end started out similar, but the WC820 hit the high end earlier than the H110. With the 265 grainers the WC820 was .1 grain faster on the low end and .2 grain faster on the high end. With the Lee 310 the picture was different, with WC820 clocking much closer to AA#9 than H110. I didn't have any boolits in the 280-300 grain range available to try.

What I learned was that my lot of WC 820 is very close to H110 at weights under 240 grains in the .44 mag, but acts much more like AA#9 as the boolit weights increase.

A couple of of topic examples: my work up with WC852s directed at 140 grain condoms in the 6.5x55 showed that the surplus fell exactly between the two 4831s, (and was more accurate than either, I later had the opportunity to have those loads pressure tested and found out that while the WC852s fell in between in velocity, it was doing so at 8% higher pressure. With the 120 grainers it was also a match in velocity, but at 5% lower pressure. Who'd a thunk it? I also spent some time working up a full house load using WC860 in the .270 WBY mag only to discard it after discovering the large velocity variation due to temperature in that loading. Just not worth it in a cartridge that operates so close to the max, and is used only to hunt.

So it may be a more complicated relationship than you'd like. And it's well worth the time doing some controlled experimentation with a range of loads before you extrapolate your way into anything close to the max. Keep in mind that it's not just boolit weight driving the pressure bus in the straight wall handgun cartridges. The amount of boolit in the case, decreasing the combustion volume, also plays a big role, so a 260 grain HP to a 260 grain WFN is not going to be an apples to apples comparison either.

Take your time, be careful, and have some fun with it. And if you do find "the load", buy 32 lbs of that lot while you still can.

BD

BD;
That is an EXCELLENT post! It should be required reading for all who use surplus powders.

I got in on the early buy of surplus WC 820 (ultimately bought 450 lbs for a local group buy for my home gun club). I used a chronograph EXACTLY like you stated. I was also mindful of the dangers of interpolation. You CANNOT assume that if the surplus powder matches a canister powder with a particular bullet style and weight in a particular cartridge, it will in all cartridges. You MUST run the tests yourself.

I also, after the tests, confine myself to "not quite" maximum loads with all powders, including canister powders. As an example, with my cast bullet in .44 Magnum, my "maximum" load is 25.0 grs. I practice with 23.0 grs and my hunting load is 24.0 grs. With a 250 gr bullet the practice load gives me 1200 fps and my hunting load gives me 1300 fps. The "maximum load gives me 1400 fps. No deer can tell the difference between 1300 vs 1400 fps. However, that margin can mean the difference in battering my gun to death over several thousand shots or having a gun (mine) that has shot ten thousand rounds of relatively heavy loads with NO perceptible wear. On the other hand, the "practice" load gives me the needed confidence and experience to handle the "hunting" load MUCH better than shooting "light target" loads.

Just a thought or two...
Dale53