Primer Reloading - NC V4.2 for EPH-2x

[P Flados]

Use of EPH-2x mixtures for primer reloading is the topic of the Sparkplugs thread

There are still a few folks posting about primer reloading at MeWe.

I will be using this thread to talk about one specific item. Making NC powder using a method inspired by JB Meier's efforts.

On item required for EPH-2x is Nitrocelulose (NC) processed into a fine powder. I found that my mechanically ground (ceramic burr hand coffee grinder) needed to be < 100 mesh. To get this mesh required many passes and was a PITA. I had tried other methods that were even worse for making the needed volumes to support my >5K per year habit. To make my discussion easier I will assign “versions” to the general methods as follows:

NC V1:

Mix NC with ground glass and work the mixture in a mortar and pestle. This works ok for starting out but is too much work to support volume reloading.

NC V2:

Dissolve NC in just enough acetone to cast a “puck” in an aluminum foil tray. Let the acetone evaporate to get a hard puck. Mechanically file, grind, or sand off the puck and collect the removed material. I did one puck and found this to be way too much work.

NC V3:

Mechanically cut/grind NC. Most folks trying this have used electric coffee grinders (small food processor / blender type devices) which I will call NC V3.0. I used a ceramic burr hand coffee grinder that I will call NC V3.1. These devices were not really intended for this type of use and are not really a great solution.

NC V4:

A regular at the MeWe forum (J.B.) was working with NC dissolved in acetone and alcohol to make a lacquer. He inadvertently found that his liquid “turned cloudy” as he was adding some Isopropyl Alocohol (IPA). He concluded that the water content in the IPA exceeded a threshold and pushed the NC into a precipitate. He filtered the mix, let the filtrate dry and processed it into a powder.

NC V4.1:

He eventually published a pdf guide for making what I will call NC V4.1. NC V4.1 uses NC, acetone, methyl alcohol and 91% IPA.

NC V4.2:

It occurred to me that a simpler method with use of only NC, acetone and 70% IPA might work. I have run 2 batches using a non-typical NC (H100 / Wc 620) that have worked. I am going to play around with different amounts of IPA and I will try some other oddball types of NC. Eventually I hope to come up with a simple & easy NC V4.2 that is a good option for making larger amounts of fine NC powder.

[P Flados]

NC V4.2a:

As previously noted, I used H110 for my first batch. This powder is probably one of the least likely choices for some methods, but if it works for for NV V4, most any powder should also work. The batch required much more IPA than I expected to get the slurry to show any signs of turning cloudy. I completely lost track of the amount added. The liquid was poured into a filter, but next to nothing went through the filter. I closed up the filter paper and let it dry overnight. The next day the light grey colored solid material was much softer than normal NC, but was something of a pain to get to a fine powder. Testing was based on firing primed 9mm empties with the muzzle pressed against cardboard. My first test loading of 10 gave poor results (most were weak, one was ok). I went back and reduced the NC size to <150 mesh and got good results on a second group from the initial batch of NC.

[P Flados]

NC V4.2b:

I then did another batch.

This one used 41 gr of some "fertilizer grade" milsurp version of H110. This stuff was contaminated with a little bit of small flake powder, trash & dirt. It also “smelled bad”. As such it is not really useful for normal reloading. This stuff was discussed in https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...tlett-did-good.

I used 20 ml of acetone in a baby food jar and my magnetic mixer. I ran the mixer for about 15 minutes to get rid of the clumps and then another 5 minutes for good measure. I used a "double boiler" arrangement with the water at 110 to 125 degf (acetone boils at 133 degf). I added 70% IPA using a pipette. At about 10 ml, It started to look a little cloudy. I added another 2 ml and it looked more uniformly cloudy.

Again, next to nothing went through the filter. A couple of hours later it looked dry enough to remove from the paper.

I ran it through a mortar and pestle and it reduced ok. Initially most of it was a dark grey. I started running it through my mesh screens using a 1" soft bristle paint brush to sweep the material back and forth across the screen. Stuff that did not want to go through a given screen was run back through the mortar & pestle again. Eventually I got it all through a 200 mesh screen.

As I was working with it the color got lighter. I think this was drying out of the residual water still in the NC.

Yield looks like it will be close to 60%. I loaded five test rounds with a 10-10-6-4 (LH-LN-NC-GG) version of EPH-20. Primed empties fired in my G17 clone were full power.

[P Flados]

I have primed up 50 cases (38 Sp) with a 10-10-6-4 EPH-20 using a mix of NC V4.2a & V4.2b to confirm acceptable use in actual ammo.

[MUSTANG]

Watching. Please continue and share efforts.

[JBMeier]

Watching. Please continue and share efforts.

EPH20 and the 26 variant are very popular on our MeWe forum, but my preferred and proven recipes are the updated SINOXID variant described here:
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO1995015298A1/en

...and the classic WW2 work horse FA-70. Corrosive, highly effective, dirt cheap (2.75$ USD per K).
I am currently working on diy BP substitutes, further development of PoudreB hybrid propellant, and exploring Stabanate primers based on the double salt of lead trinitro -rescorcinate and nitro-aminotetrazole.

[JFoster48386]

I've been thinking giving it a try...

Jon.

[P Flados]

I've been thinking giving it a try...

Jon.

If you want to talk over your application and your options, the Sparkplug thread or PMs would probably be better than this thread. I am trying to keep this one specific to making NC powder.

[P Flados]

NC V4.2c:

This one used 41 gr of my WC 820 ("fertilizer grade" milsurp version of H110). The change from the previous batch was to increase 70% IPA from 12 to 15 ml. Acetone was 20 ml again.

For this batch, I ended up with a pretty big clump of NC that took longer to get mixed in. I ran the magnetic mixer for probably 40 minutes total. Next time I will probably try to add the NC more carefully with the jar still on the mixer.

It seems that the extra IPA resulted in more liquid dripping through the coffee filter. It also ended up with a low yield (~30%). I think there was a good deal of NC simply dissolved in liquid acetone (instead of floating as a precipitate). The dry product also seemed harder to process into powder than 4.2b.

NC V4.2d:

This one I went with 50 gr of NC, 20 ml acetone and 15 ml IPA. Yield in terms of percent NC was about the same as 4.2c, but yield in terms of grs of NC for amount of acetone was better. Again, I think I lost a good bit passing through the filter paper.

NC V4.2e:

This one I did a little bit of a different sequence. I started with 20 ml acetone and added 3ml of 70% IPA before adding the 41 gr of NC. This is just trying to keep the liquid less viscous during the NC dissolving stage. I added 10 ml IPA after the NC was dissolved.

I then poured the result into a "drying tray" instead of a filter. I am certain this will help the yield. I just hope that the product will process into a fine powder with the mortar & pestle (regular NC "as purchased" does not do well in a mortar & pestle as it is too "gummy" and tends to smear around).

[P Flados]

Well, I have yield results for e, f & g. Yields are much better (the drying tray works good), and the material is processing to a fine powder nicely. I have decided that pushing it through 200 mesh gives results that are too fine. It is exceedingly fluffy and hard to work with. I have been "double packing" to get good amounts into each primer.

Note: Starting at V4.2f, I swapped to a different mixing container. I did not like the baby food jar so I made a hardwood stopper for my little 50 ml beaker. This resulted in a better depth for the fluid during mixing and less waste from residual lost in the mixing container after the fluid was poured out.

In general I do not feel I am repeatable in the overall "processing" yet. I will list the inputs to f & g, but will not show individual yields until I get more consistent.

NC V4.2f:

NC: 45 gr WC 820, Acetone: 20 ml, IPA: 12 ml (2 before NC, 10 ml after).

NC V4.2g:

NC: 50 gr WC 820, Acetone: 20 ml, IPA: 15 ml (5 before NC, 10 ml after).

[P Flados]

Batch NC V4.2h is drying. I went with:

NC: 48 gr W296, Acetone: 20 ml, IPA: 12 ml (3 before NC, 9 ml after).

The wet processing went well. The liquid is pretty thick before final addition of IPA. Around 10.5 ml IPA total, the viscosity took a step change thinner. I think this was the threshold where some NC went into a precipitate. Overall, this seems to be pretty good for input ratios of ingredients. It gets a lot of NC into a liquid that is just thin enough to work with and the resultant solid will process into fine powder easily.

I will be working to see how course a mesh size will work with the solid from this batch. Then I will start trying some other smokeless powders for NC source. I may also play with EPH-20 ratios again. 10-10-5-5 (LH-LN-NC-GG) worked with my previous NC source. The high glass to NC ratio was selected as glass was easier/cheaper. I have been using 10-10-6-4 with NC V4.2 to get approximately the same power level.

On a separate note, I fired 50 of my 38 Sp and 10 of my 9mm loaded with primers made using NC v4.2. All did fine. The 38 loads were fired in a 6" revolver and should have had a velocity of just over 1100 fps. Any significant ignition problem with this load is expected to show up as round that drops below sonic and gives a soft report. None did in this batch.

[mvintx]

I know this has been mentioned before on the MeWe forum but many of us use an electric coffee grinder then sift the results through a 100 mesh sieve. Whatever fines are left go back into the grinder for another pass.

There are some safety concerns and I place the grinder in a 5 gal bucket and put it on the concrete apron in front of my barn. An extension cord is plugged into the grinder, tape or clamp the button to the 'on' position and plug the extension cord into an outlet at a safe distance away. 30 seconds to 1 minute of grinding with about 5 minutes cooling time between 3 or 4 sessions will result in about 30 grains of NC. That will make 400 small pistol or rifle primers at the rate of 7.5 grains per 100. It beats grinding the powder with ground glass by hand.

This is probably not enough production for your purposes Pflados but others who are browsing this thread may find the information of value.

Last year I bought a Grain Mill Grinder to see if it would do a better job of grinding powder than the coffee grinder but have not yet used it.

[P Flados]

I know this has been mentioned before on the MeWe forum but many of us use an electric coffee grinder then sift the results through a 100 mesh sieve. Whatever fines are left go back into the grinder for another pass.

There are some safety concerns and I place the grinder in a 5 gal bucket and put it on the concrete apron in front of my barn. An extension cord is plugged into the grinder, tape or clamp the button to the 'on' position and plug the extension cord into an outlet at a safe distance away. 30 seconds to 1 minute of grinding with about 5 minutes cooling time between 3 or 4 sessions will result in about 30 grains of NC. That will make 400 small pistol or rifle primers at the rate of 7.5 grains per 100. It beats grinding the powder with ground glass by hand.

This is probably not enough production for your purposes Pflados but others who are browsing this thread may find the information of value.

Last year I bought a Grain Mill Grinder to see if it would do a better job of grinding powder than the coffee grinder but have not yet used it.

The above is a good description of using an electric coffee grinder (what I designated as NC V3.0).

I have looked at devices that fall into the "grain mill grinder" category. Most (if not all) mechanically shear particles. This is similar to my ceramic burr coffee grinder, but hopefully would be better at getting 100 mesh without requiring excessive passes.

Some grain mill grinders are very expensive. Some are reasonable.

My bet is there is one or more out there that combine "will work" with "reasonable cost". However, I have not figured out any low risk method to find the right device.

For what it is worth, if someone does find the "right" shearing action grinder, I would say it would be choice #1 for volume work.

[P Flados]

Side note: Wet Prime dry times

I assemble primers 50 at a time in a plate, add water for activation and then insert into my brass immediately. This is call "wet priming".

For normal ammo, I have been letting the cases dry for 2 days at indoor ambient conditions.

For the NC V4 experiments I tried heated drying again. With 1.5 hours at 125 degf followed by 2 hours at ambient, I got 100% ignition on my most recent batch.

[P Flados]

Interim summary:

Using Acetone & 70% IPA (NC V4.2) works to generate a solid that is soft enough to be easily processed into a fine powder. Use a drying tray instead of a filter paper. This method should work with all smokeless powder, I will do some batches to confirm this.

The NC V4.2 solid will be much less dense than the solid NC from the "puck method". The density reduction is a "downside" compared to other methods.

I have been "double packing" to get enough EPH-20 mix with NC V4.2 in each cup, where I "single pack" when using NC V3.1. Even with typical "double packing" my last batch required less than normal, approx 25 gr of EPH-20 mix per 100 primers.

For those that mix a batch for each 100 primers made, you may want to try 8.5-8.5-5.1-3.4 (LH-LN-NC-GG). This has the same ratios as the 10-10-6-4 that I used for most of my testing so far. A blend at 10-10-6.5-3.5 might have a little more power, but you are getting closer to minimum acceptable GG. For a EPH-25/EPH-26 type mix, I would just add say 2.0 gr or so of AL to the above.

I seem to be getting good results at 100 mesh, but if you are getting inconsistent power levels, going with 150 mesh would be a good first option to improve things.

[dondiego]

Interim summary:

Using Acetone & 70% IPA works to generate a solid that is soft enough to be easily processed into a fine powder. Use a drying tray instead of a filter paper. This method should work with all smokeless powder, I will do some batches to confirm this.

The solid will be much less dense than the solid NC from the "puck method". The density reduction is a "downside" compared to other methods.

I have been "double packing" to get enough in each cup, where I "single pack" with my NC V3.1. Even with typical "double packing" my last batch required less than normal, approx 25 gr of EPH-20 mix per 100 primers.

For those that mix a batch for each 100 primers made, you may want to try 8.5-8.5-5.1-3.4 (LH-LN-NC-GG). This has the same ratios as the 10-10-6-4 that I used for most of my testing so far. A blend at 10-10-6.5-3.5 might have a little more power, but you are getting closer to minimum acceptable GG. For a EPH-25/EPH-26 type mix, I would just add say 2.0 gr or so of AL to the above.

I seem to be getting good results at 100 mesh, but if you are getting inconsistent power levels, going with 150 mesh would be a good first option to improve things.

IPA? India Pale Ale??? I can't understand much of your guys banter................NC ? What? GG, EPH,???

[P Flados]

IPA? India Pale Ale??? I can't understand much of your guys banter................NC ? What? GG, EPH,???

I tried to provide the "key" to most items in Post #1. And yes this thread really is meant for folks that already have some experience with primer reloading. If you are not a primer reloader, but might want to be, I recommend looking over the sparkplug thread (see link in Post #1).

[dondiego]

I tried to provide the "key" to most items in Post #1. And yes this thread really is meant for folks that already have some experience with primer reloading. If you are not a primer reloader, but might want to be, I recommend looking over the sparkplug thread (see link in Post #1).

Thanks for your explanation.

[Shiloh]

I missed it. Will the ground glass in the NC create ignition??

Shiloh

[P Flados]

I missed it. Will the ground glass in the NC create ignition??

Shiloh

Our EPH-2x primers typically consist of 2/3 by weight of the primary compound, Lead Nitratohypophosphite. It is impact sensitive and will go bang if you hit a pile of it with a hammer. However, it needs increased sensitivity to work reliably in primers. Ground glass (GG) is called a "frictionator" and it helps with primer ignition.

With just Lead Nitratohypophosphite and some GG, primers would go bang, but they would not have enough "power". The NC is added to boost the bang. I have been keeping the combined GG and NC at 1/3 of my mixes.

For rifle applications, a smidge of aluminum powder is typically added. This generates hot particles that penetrate the powder column for better overall ignition of the primary charge.

With just GG and NC in a primer, I do not think you would ever get ignition.