The Long range 30-30 Winchester project.

[marlinman93]

At 600 yards, how much bigger is the front sight than the deer?
That’s my question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It depends on what type of front sight one uses. I can tell you my .040" wide post in my globe sight is equal width to the size of the target at our 1000 yd. range, and that target is 36" round. So when I'm sighting with a post insert I sit the round target on top of my front post and even up the edges side to side.
When I'm shooting at closer 400,500 and 650 yds. I choose a front aperture insert that allows me to center the target regardless of size in the middle with as little light around the target as possible. The larger that aperture is, the more it allows me to be off perfect center, and group size opens up slightly.
Of course with scopes on my old single shots I simply center the crosshairs regardless of distance.

[marlinman93]

Its not just the sights or the groups you get. At 600 yards it is also range estimation. For a long range competition everyone gets sight in shot to dial in on the target but hunters don't get that opportunity.

With a 200 yard zero the bullet will drop 88 inches at 600 yards. But at 575 yards will be 10 inches higher, and 625 yards 11 inches lower. Both misses or a wounded deer.

I used a range finder whenever possible when hunting with my old rifles. I trusted range estimating to maybe 150 yds. or less, but further than that I used my range finder. The good thing is the further the deer was from me, the less chance they were going to run before I could get a range on them. So I usually had more time to range them when they were far enough to need to.
But I decided if I couldn't keep all my shots within a 5" grouping at a specific yardage I wasn't going to take shots any further than that. For iron sighted single shots my personal limit was 250 yds. to keep 10 shots under 5". For scopes it was several times that, but never had to take a deer with my scoped rifle past 450 yds. and most were in the 300-400 yd. range.
Most importantly is knowing sight settings or adjustments for whatever range your target is at. And adjusting quick enough to be able to take the shot. There again the further the game is the more time you have to range it, and adjust sights before the game spooks and takes off.

[Shawlerbrook]

If you’re shooting steel or paper at whatever distance and can do it well I am impressed. But to take a 600+ yard shot at game with a gun and setup meant for a couple hundreds of yard tops is wreckless no matter how good you are. The wind can be blowing in different directions down range and the chances of a wounded and lost animal just isn’t worth whatever satisfaction one gets from it. Just my humble opinion. Because we must remember the sport is called hunting when game is involved, not shooting.

[dverna]

The range estimate issue is a bit of a red herring. I do not hunt. I shoot critters.

I am the only person at deer camp who has a range card for the blind I will be shooting from. I use a rangefinder to establish the range of trees, rocks, power poles within range.

I suspect the OP does not walk down a power line looking for a deer to pop out. He sits and waits. He may be shooting over a bait pile. Who knows.

The .30/30 has been deemed a 200 yard round by people who think of it as being used with crappy iron sights out of a Winchester Model 94 with bullets safe for a tube magazine by a guy who shoots less than 100 rounds a year. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

For long range shooting, steel or paper, with a post front sight that is very large compared to the target - Parallel sides and flat top - I have simply used the vertical plane of the side of the sight - that is the corner of the sight, rather than trying to center the target on top of the sight. I do this with coarse sights on most handguns when shooting past 200 yards on small targets. With an aperture front sight - the correct size aperture can be selected, this is ASSUMING your sights can be precisely adjusted for the elevation and windage required, the longer the sight radius, the finer the adjustment, using the same sight graduation/setting. Coarse bead front sights don't help much for precise setups, the round surface changes appearance, depending on light, though some Schuetzen shooters use a 'pinhead sight' to make a figure 8 with the front sight and the target. At really long range, not just elevation and wind, but air density comes into play, changing trajectory, a rifle sighted at sea level will have a different zero at 9000 feet. Temperature of the air also changes air density so that also makes a difference. Great fun and challenging on paper, paper targets tell the truth, with a permanent record to stare at.

[JBMeier]

Load a .308 with good BP sub in the 125-150gr bullet range..you have 30-30 ballistics. Makes it a much more versatile cartridge ...two calibers for one. That said I my prefer the Savage ML-10 with a 360gr lead Maxiball...no deer has gotten more than 20 yards away from where it got plugged with that load moving at 1500-1600 fps...massive energy dump. But the terrain matters...in southern IN a shot past 150yrds is uncommon

[Larry Gibson]

.......The .30/30 has been deemed a 200 yard round by people who think of it as being used with crappy iron sights out of a Winchester Model 94 with bullets safe for a tube magazine by a guy who shoots less than 100 rounds a year. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Don, I agree with you, that is a very wrong assumption.

I shoot a lot and, while not as good as I used to be, am not a "guy who shoots less than 100 rounds a year". When hunting with cast bullets [Lyman 311041HPs at 2000 or 2250 fps] out of my M94 30-30s [ M94 Carbine or M94AE rifle] I consider 200 yards as max range on deer because that's the max range the bullet will retain enough velocity to kill the deer effectively based on my own experience killing many deer with that bullet. Both M94s currently wear Lyman receiver sights with a post front sight so accuracy is not the problem...retained velocity and terminal ballistics beyond 200 yards are. Even using that bullet in other cartridges such as the 308W and the 30-06 I sitll consider the max effective range to be the same 200 yards simply because the velocity ranges with that 311041 in those cartridges is pretty much the same as in the 303-30s.

I too, use a range finder.

However, switching to a Hornady 160 gr FTX bullet loaded over LeveRevolution powder in the 30-30 cartridge changes the equation. I can easily put scopes on either M94, a scout scope on the Carbine and an over the receiver scope on the M94AE. With such the M94 Carbine becomes a 300+ yard capable deer rifle and the M94AE a 400 yard deer rifle because of the increased accuracy, better retained velocity and effective terminal ballistics at those ranges with that FTX bullet.. At those ranges the accuracy potential from field shooting positions [including positions shooting from a "blind"] then is the limiting factor is being able to put the bullet into a 6 -8" kill zone covering the heart/lung area on a deer.

Of course, the 30-30 cartridge in a Bolt or single action rifle is another ball game all together. Loading current modern ballistic tipped boat tails over powders that can safely up the chamber pressure [given the actions strength] greatly improve not only the ballistics of the cartridge but also the accuracy potential of those actions vs the lever actions accuracy potential.

Back in the day when I had a M788 30-30 with a 24" barrel (?) so I put a Weaver K-10 on it for S&Gs and loaded some 150 gr Sierra MKs to 2500+ fps and did some very good shooting from a prone supported position at 600 yards on the NRA HP 600 yard target. The accuracy went south at 800 yards as the bullets began going subsonic around that range. I've no doubt with a single shot rifle with a 30 +/-" barrel and using the bullets we have available today that longer range shooting is entirely possible with the 30-30 cartridge.

[marlinman93]

People kill deer with handguns at under 100 yds. and velocities exiting the barrel that are lower than a fast .30-30 is at 500 yds. So not sure I'd believe a .30-30 is limited to 200 yds. by velocity and knockdown power. A 150 gr. .30 caliber bullet leaving the muzzle at 2300 fps is going to be down to 1300 fps at 500 yds. That's still plenty fast enough to bring down deer. I loaded up 130 gr. Speer flat points for my nephew's .30-30 Marlin for deer hunting that exited the barrel at close to 2600 fps. He took numerous mule deer with it at 250 yds. or more, and always one shot kills.
The big difference is what the shooter feels is ethical, and they can consistently hit the kill zone in every time. So a shooter shouldn't take a shot at any distance he's not confident he's able to make every time. We all need to know our limitations, but not put those limits on everyone else. I love to try shooting my rifles and pistols at all sorts of extreme range at targets, but doesn't mean I'd do the same at game.

[lar45]

I've been in Arkansas the past 12-13 years and have had to learn to hunt Arkansas style. Our lease is like 1500 Acres of Pine and Oak. The brush is horribly thick. Lots of Blackberry patches, thorny vines, brush. It's almost impossible to walk though.
So you take your tractor down and brushhog some lanes and build a wooden box/blind to sit in and wait.
After the clearing of the sides and mowing, I walk down the lane with my range finder and some orange marking tape. At 100yds, I hang 1 strip of marking tape. At 200yds, I hang 2, at 300 yds, I hang 3 strips. The end of the lane is about 350. The lanes are only about 20 feet wide, so if something is just passing through and not stopping for a bite, I just see which orange tape it's closest to and adjust my holdover if needed.
It seems like most of what hang out feeding in the lane are small bucks that need a couple of years to grow.
I started rotating my rifles every year just so they wouldn't have to sit in the safe. A few years back, it was the Win Mod70 300Win mag's turn. A big Hog came out for some corn between the 2 and 3 strip markings. I don't like blood trailing Hogs in the heavy brush, so I popped it through the top of the head. No tracking. Range finder afterwards was 237 yds. I wouldn't have gone for a head shot with open sights.

[725]

Sadly, some have moved from hunting to shooting as the pleasure defining filling the freezer. I think hunters always enjoy a challenge and one of the ways to extend that pursuit is to try and go for long range hunting. Killing game, however, is different than punching holes in a target. When you mis-read the wind or distance on a target or there is an anomaly with one particular round of ammo, nothing suffers. Do that to an animal and days, weeks or longer of cruel suffering can result. Not everybody is going to accept my view on this. My opinion comes from some very hard lessons. You just can not predict or count on the actions & reactions of your target.

[jonp]

The range estimate issue is a bit of a red herring. I do not hunt. I shoot critters.

I am the only person at deer camp who has a range card for the blind I will be shooting from. I use a rangefinder to establish the range of trees, rocks, power poles within range.

I suspect the OP does not walk down a power line looking for a deer to pop out. He sits and waits. He may be shooting over a bait pile. Who knows.

The .30/30 has been deemed a 200 yard round by people who think of it as being used with crappy iron sights out of a Winchester Model 94 with bullets safe for a tube magazine by a guy who shoots less than 100 rounds a year. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

I've been using one for about 50 years I think at this point. I'd not go much beyond 200 yards with it. There are far better rounds out there if the shot is expected. Within that distance it is a wonder on whitetail.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, one can poke holes in deer at extended ranges and "kill" them. The question then becomes one of how far the deer travel before can it's dead and will you be able to find it. Having lost a couple deer before in my younger more exuberant years I have learned that limiting my exuberance to an effective range where I'm certain of a quick kill and recovery of the deer is better for me. Perhaps that's where the "ethical" part comes in?

Thus, I should have better explained my previous statement of; "that's the max range the bullet will retain enough velocity to kill the deer effectively". That is why I have restricted my max range with cast bullets in the 30-30 using M94s to 200 yards as properly alloyed hunting cast bullet such as the 311041 still retains sufficient velocity for effective kills at that range. Beyond that range it gets real "iffy" regarding the "effectiveness" of the terminal effect of the bullet. Yes, that bullet can and will still "kill" but, again, I choose not to risk losing the deer.

[marlinman93]

There are lots of variables that go into hunting vs. just sitting at a bench shooting paper. But there are also lots of variables in where one hunts also. For those hunting timber or brush the odds of even getting a shot past 100 yds. are slim, and thus no reason to practice for long shots on game. But if you lived and hunted where I do you'd quickly change your hunting techniques, and reconsider what distance you'd shoot or end up never taking any game home each fall.
The areas I hunt out West are all open hills and mountains where I can't see even a single small tree within miles, let alone yards. It's nothing to come up over a hill and see deer 700 yds. away and they're staring at you, and ready to run if you keep approaching. We have to carefully back off when we see deer far off, and make a change in plans to try to see how close we can get before taking a shot we're confident in making. Sometimes that involves backing up, and walking an hour or more behind hills and hope when we come over a hill behind the deer that they're still there! And sometimes it's belly crawling through 2 ft. tall grasslands for hundreds of yards until you get within range, and taking the shot.
I've never lost a deer in over 50 years of hunting, but I have on two occasions had to take a 2nd shot. But surprisingly both of those were hit at less than 100 yds. on the first shot, when I expected the deer to easily drop. When a deer goes down around this area the biggest issue is finding them in wide open country! You'd think with no trees or brush it's easy, but I've walked within 25 ft. of a downed deer and didn't see them laying in the grass until I was right on them.
If I wasn't practicing longer shots I'd not have been as successful taking mule deer as I have been. I'd just have to watch deer far away and wish they'd somehow come to me instead.
Take a look at the background scenery behind me in this older picture. This buck was taken across a draw that day, and luckily I was sitting taking a break when he walked out the opposite side at 150 yds. A real chip shot for this area, and I took him with my Ballard in .38-55 easily.

[dverna]

The OP sent me some pictures and he is OK with them being posted.

[Pondskipper]

I guess what everyone seems to be missing about all this is that there’s absolutely zero guess work going on with this, when the rifle it’s self was being built extreme care was given to ensure the sight radius was exactly 34.384” which gives the rear staff exact minute of angle adjustments with .010” increments on the elevation which also dictated the barrel length of 31.9”, the elevation can be split between lines to give half minute increments and the windage drum on the staff is graduated in half minute or .005” increments so though the rifle and sight system appear old fashioned for all intents and purposes it’s incredibly precise and repeatable, it’s basically like shooting a modern scoped rifle that just so happens to have a 1x magnification scope on it.

For reference with vernier sights,
36” radius = true IPHY or inch per hundred yard increments
34.384” radius = true MOA or minute of angle adjustments
And a 10” radius would actually be 1 milliradian.
(Given that the rear staff is graduated in .010” increments for elevation)

As for the load in the rifle, I’m working at and only slightly over the maximum recommended charge weight of 37 grains for the 160gr FTX bullet but with a bullet that’s got around half the bearing surface of the 160 and is five grains lighter, it’s not at all over pressured or pushing things by any stretch, the loaded length of my rounds is 2.845” OAL. With Berger 155gr hybrids in a standard 30-30 starline brass and with a mv of 2720fps puts it at 600 yards with 1800fps remaining and a little over 1000ftlbs of energy left.

As for the shooting portion, I’m laser ranging everything on top of using a kestrel weather meter and my applied ballistics calculator to get my come ups and windage corrections, if the calculator says come up 24 minutes and left 1.5, I put the sight staff on those exact numbers and fire it’s that simple, it’s had multiple first round impacts at 1000 and 1325 yards and is shooting incredible groups at those ranges and you can’t and won’t achieve any of that by luck or coincidence. Those old rifles at first glance may seem dated and simplistic but I can assure you they are very much so still relevant even by today’s standards, those old guys that designed them and the sighting systems knew exactly what they were doing and I can assure you that if I were to go shoot it in a 308 Palma match it may not win but it would give them a run for their money without a doubt and shock a lot of people.

[HWooldridge]

Thanks for coming back and clarifying. As you stated, there is no guesswork here.

[Barry54]

Welcome back!

[Pondskipper]

Thank Don, he’s very persistent lol.

[Pondskipper]

https://youtu.be/eVQd9ow1O2w?feature=shared

[dverna]

Thank Don, he’s very persistent lol.

I have been called worse…lol. Anyway, good to see you posting.

One guy who would be worth interacting with is Larry Gibson. Like your uncle, he was a sniper in Nam and has done a mountain of work with many calibers. He has a thread on FTX bullets and LeveRevolution (sp?) powder that you should look up. It is a few years old and my search skills suck or I would link it here.