Buck & Ball ... sort of

[trebleplink]

I don't hunt much with shotgun but have a couple for defense and zapping copperheads that threaten my dogs. I'd like to have my Rem 1187 loaded up with one load that would do both reasonably well for my wife so she doesn't have to mess with picking the right ammo.

I cast 000 buck, #1 buck, and #2 birdshot. For 12 gauge I was thinking 2x 000, 2x #1 buck, and top it off to 1-1/8 oz with #2 birdshot. Maybe 1200 fps. Should this do the trick?

[kaiser]

I’ve done a bit of experimenting with shotgun loads, ie. Buckshot, slugs, and “Buck and Ball”. Your load will work, but I have seldom found any, what I consider, a “radical” combination to pattern as well as the standard duck or rabbit load used in each gauge. If you are looking for a best defensive detergent in a shotgun, be prepared to test and pattern several loads for each combination of projectiles for each firearm. All the special “defense” rounds sound and break-down into impressive components; however, few pattern better than your easy shooting “skeet” loads. I’ve never mixed shot sizes successfully that vary as much as that in which you are proposing. Interaction of large and smallpellets when firing seems to give unreliable results- sometimes somewhat satisfactory and sometimes very disappointing. Even employing a measured weight of 1 1/8 of shot, may or may not be your best pattered load weight when searching for the “best”. Good luck with your efforts.

[trebleplink]

How would you expect it to pattern inside of 50 feet?

[kaiser]

How it would pattern at such a short distant would depend upon how the barrel was choked and the composition of your target (among other factors). You will never be able to answer all your questions until to you load and shoot your “recipe”. Let us know how it patterns compared to your “garden variety” bird shot?

[gc45]

My home defense shotgun is loaded using 2 3/4 federal #4's that pattern very well on a piece of plywood besides doing lots of damage, a large, nasty ragged hole! I belive these 4's will do the job if needed, man or snake.

[Mk42gunner]

A few decades ago when Remington was selling mixed loads of shot for turkeys, they loaded the heavier shot to the front. From what I remember reading, the theory was the heavier shot maintained velocity (maybe momentum?) better and would blow the pattern of the lighter shot as it passed through. True or not? I don't know.

I would just load the gun with factory loads of #2 for your wife, given your choices; if you want to switch loads and have time, that's on you.

Robert

[5Shot]

If you stick to 1oz loads, the buckshot and birdshot all recoil the same. I have an 8 pellet 00 load that replicates the unobtainable Reduced Recoil Remington load. At 10 yards it patterns all 8 into 3” or less with my Beretta 1301 and a factory full choke. I don’t think I’d waste my time with a duplex load. If you really want something to do both I’d look at TSS.

[trebleplink]

Thanks, good comments all.
My thinking was that the 000 and #1 buck (total four pellets) would ensure penetration of at least these pellets, while the #2 birdshot would keep it useful for snakes etc. I would expect the buck to outrun the birdshot at a distance, but inside of 50 feet I would think they would pretty much stay together. I am far from a buckshot expert, but I wonder if small shot might suffer from penetration problems with thick clothing and other unfavorable conditions.

[kaiser]

Take your least favorite winter coat, put on a “dummy”, and fire at from 50’ with 1 1/8 oz load of #4’s. If the dummy can sustain this load from 15 yards the coat is either too heavy, made of Kevlar, you need a bigger gun, or a heavier load�� As gc45 indicated, the pellet load does not have a far enough distant to the target to “spread” any load you may choose. Therefore, your main concern will be how much penetration you want, which will determine the size and weight of the pellet to achieve that goal.

[faustus]

Are we talking defense against bears or 2 legged?

If it is 2 legged .... then I would use 3" lead BB loads.

A 1 7/8oz lead BB load has around 100 pellets ... and it takes only one pellet to enter the brain to do the job ....

[faustus]

But I have played with slug and shot loads .... and there is one critical thing that I learned.

The shot needs to go on top of the slug. Otherwise the increased sidewall pressure will rip the hull apart.

This load produced the following result.






Whereas these ones shot fine ....

[Barry54]

I don't hunt much with shotgun but have a couple for defense and zapping copperheads that threaten my dogs. I'd like to have my Rem 1187 loaded up with one load that would do both reasonably well for my wife so she doesn't have to mess with picking the right ammo.

I cast 000 buck, #1 buck, and #2 birdshot. For 12 gauge I was thinking 2x 000, 2x #1 buck, and top it off to 1-1/8 oz with #2 birdshot. Maybe 1200 fps. Should this do the trick?

This is along the lines of what I call a tree trimming load. I’ve put four junky dirty, barely copper plated 380 projectiles in the red Winchester AA wads and filled with large shot.



A shotgun is a great multiple projectile delivery system. Load up what you want and pattern test it to see for yourself.

When you start using bigger pellets, you’ll likely need to use a 1-3/8 or even a 1-1/2 recipe to fit 1-1/8 ounce total payload weight inside.

A non duplexed load of #2 or #1 or BB or T lead shot may be all you need to handle everything listed.

Probably my greatest satisfaction of assembling handloads is the ability to load what’s not available off the shelf.

[trebleplink]

Holy crap! Now THAT is buck & ball.

[Barry54]

I literally used those to trim limbs blocking my view from the Deerstand.

I know the 380 bullets will tumble but inside the tree radius range they worked great!

Is it Hornady that has the dead coyote load that is lead BB shot? The bigger lead shot sizes that are practically obsolete because of environmental regulations are quite potent!

Have you mocked up the pellets in the wads you have to see how they fit?

What wads do you have or intend to get?

[trebleplink]

Well, I have a bunch of primed Fiocchi 2-3/4" clear hulls, and whichever of the 7 wad types I have fit the load best. Thinking 1-1/8 oz. Maybe Hodgdon Universal or Viht 330. Probably start with about 23 grains, chrono, and work up to 1200 fps from an 18" improved cyl. Gotta try out my new Garmin Doppler radar.

[Barry54]

I haven’t been able to stack 000 pellets in wads with a shotcup, that’s why I asked if you have mocked up the payload you want to try.

[trebleplink]

When I was playing with this, seems like after the four buck balls, it was only about 40 of the 5 grain little ones. But I have not decided on a wad.

[Barry54]

When I was playing with this, seems like after the four buck balls, it was only about 40 of the 5 grain little ones. But I have not decided on a wad.

I’m anxiously awaiting which wad you get 000 to stack in. I’ll likely load up something similar once you report back. These type of loads really appeal to me.
Thanks!

[trebleplink]

Well, I started to make some progress - using an MG42 wad.
BUT
THE GARMIN XERO DOES NOT FUNCTION WITH SHOT LOADS.

Only slugs.

This is from Garmin customer service - after I tried three times to chrono this load.

[Barry54]

I definitely couldn’t get 000 to stack in the MG42 wad. Using ten pellets of 0 buckshot, stacked by twos, I got the tightest patterning loads of buckshot I have ever fired!

Did you omit the 000 from your testing or put them in there caddy-wampus?