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View Poll Results: What would you choose?

Voters
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  • 147gr HST at 1225 FPS

    7 30.43%
  • 135gr Critical Duty at 1300 FPS

    2 8.70%
  • 124gr XTP at 1450 FPS

    13 56.52%
  • 90gr XTM at 1600 FPS

    1 4.35%
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Thread: 38 Super defense/hunting load poll

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM52 View Post
    If we are talking a CC SD load, have been carrying the Underwood 90 grain Xtreme Defender in a Commander since it came out. They run 1560 from a 4.25" and 1650 from a 5"...

    Unfortunately, Underwood discontinued the load due to slow sales...that said I have enough to last for several years...
    If I was not using that load would probably go with most any 124 or 115 JHP that clocks at least 1350 fps...
    Most of my Super ammo has been fired in IPSC, IDPA or just target/plinking. Favorite bullets are the Berry's Mfg. plated 100 grain RN-HB for a practice round for the Underwood carry ammo in Commanders. 124 grain Berry TC-HB or the 124 Hornady TAP for most everything else practice wise.
    As to cast:
    SEACO 383 140 grain TC 6.0 grains of Unique runs 1250 fps. It can easily made to go 1300.


    Bob
    This may be the best load for .38 Super, yet devised. If Unique is in short supply, AA#5, AA#7, and VV3N37 make excellent substitute propellants. Obviously, the load data will be different, but similar performance is entirely obtainable.

    This is not a cast boolit so I'm not going with the bigger is better but velocity is king. 124gr.
    I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm not sure why velocity would be king, when lighter (and lightly constructed) projectiles tend to not always behave according to expectations, as velocities increase (especially in game-sized animal tissue). Personally, though the momenta of both loads would be the same, I'd far prefer to use a 145 gr. LSWC, launched at 1250 f/s, than a 125 gr. JHP at 1450 f/s.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    This may be the best load for .38 Super, yet devised. If Unique is in short supply, AA#5, AA#7, and VV3N37 make excellent substitute propellants. Obviously, the load data will be different, but similar performance is entirely obtainable.


    I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm not sure why velocity would be king, when lighter (and lightly constructed) projectiles tend to not always behave according to expectations, as velocities increase (especially in game-sized animal tissue). Personally, though the momenta of both loads would be the same, I'd far prefer to use a 145 gr. LSWC, launched at 1250 f/s, than a 125 gr. JHP at 1450 f/s.
    I think it depends on the objective and conditions. A 145 gr LSWC is going to over penetrate in most conditions where you might choose a 38 super pistol. Modern 125 gr. JHP's are not as unpredictable as they used to be and 125 gr. is substantial bullet not like the 90 and 119 gr bullets. There is well documented data about how very effective a 125 gr. JHP at 1400 fps can be.

    Tim
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  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    I think it depends on the objective and conditions. A 145 gr LSWC is going to over penetrate in most conditions where you might choose a 38 super pistol. Modern 125 gr. JHP's are not as unpredictable as they used to be and 125 gr. is a substantial bullet unlike the 90 and 119 gr bullets. There is well documented data about how very effective a 125 gr. JHP at 1400 fps can be.
    Tim
    If you're referring to the Marshall-Sanow compilations of 3 (4?) decades ago, I agree that their results suggested a 125 gr. projectile from a 4" .357 Magnum revolver was among the most effective fight-stoppers, if not (according to their data) THE most effective. But while both rounds have essentially identical ballistics, let's remember that the rounds were not otherwise identical. The .357" diameter projectiles launched from the rovolvers often used deifferent geometries, which tended to impact tissue differently. If memory serves, .357 ammunition topped with Sierra JSPs and JHPs was just becoming available. These had profiles best described as a "truncated cone", though tipped with soft lead +/- a hollow cavity. The flat "point" on the projectile acted much in the same way that the meplat and driving bands of LSWCs act in tissue. Rather than pressing aside an artery, nerve trunk, or bone, the sharp-meplated flat-points tended to merely "punch" a semi-circular hole in the body feature of interest, probably triggering expansion and a fair amount of yawing. The .355" - .356" JSP/JHP projectiles, on the other hand tended to have pointed noses with jacket profiles not far removed from that of the original FMJRNs first used in auto pistols. It is not difficult for me to imagine that the first pistol-caliber hollow points started life as FMJRNs, and were filed, drilled and otherwise modified into something that its modifier hoped would work better. The rounded noses and bullet ogives were not merely due to the bullet maker clinging obstinately to tradition and original dogma, however. I'm pretty sure that the manufacturers marketing the first auto pistol rounds with JSP/JHP projectiles had nightmares about them not reliably feeding in "Ol Joe Dokes' WWII bring-back", and subjecting them to litigation for a death due to a jammed pistol using their ammunition.
    Not long after, a great deal more about making "funny shaped" bullets feed through automatic pistols was widely known, and now almost any projectile shape imaginable can be fed through even the most cranky of auto pistols, with a bit of polishing and relieving. But back to the Marshall-Sanow data, I suspect that the flat-meplated Sierras accounted for a great many of those vaunted "one-shot" stops and they were due as much to the projectile geometry as to the formidable ballistics involved. It also makes me wonder how a gas-checked 125 gr. LSWC, also launched at 1450 f/s. might have stacked up.
    Last edited by Kosh75287; 10-26-2024 at 02:06 PM.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  4. #24
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    A good discussion and fun but probably does not make a gnat's behind of difference in the real world as far at self-defense goes except the issue of overpenetration. You place 36 caliber bullet 119 gr. or more at over 1200 fps in the kill zone, it is going to be effective. Overpenetration can and often leads to collateral damage that can be heartbreaking.
    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  5. #25
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    If I was limited to one weight in .38 Super it would be the 124/125 class of bullet.

    115 and lower are faster but at what they can be pushed may under penetrate. 140-160 are going to be a bit slow for me...

    124/5s can be pushed into the 1400s and good boutique loads 1350+....

    Bob

  6. #26
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    I am intrigued by the seemingly morbid concern for over penetration from the .38 Super, when there seems to have been far less concern about it, when the 4" barreled .357 Magnum revolver was the sidearm of a large majority of uniformed peace officers in the 60s, 70s and 80s. If a 140-160 gr. LSWC/JSP/JHP launched at 1200 + 50 f/s from a .38 Super is now a great hazard for over-penetration, then why was/is not the same weight/configuration of bullet, launched at 1400 + 50 f/s from a .357 magnum somehow LESS of a concern?
    The revolver round has almost 17% more momentum and 36% more kinetic energy, both of which are determinants of penetration, yet the mention of over-penetration hazard, while not unknown, seemed conveniently infrequent. Exposed lead JSPs, unless they hit bone or very dense muscle, often to not deform/ expand, and tend to act like solids. JHPs under the same conditions tend to "mash shut" when they do not expand and behave like FMJs. Unjacketed soft(ish) lead SWCs, especially if hollow-pointed, tend to work more reliably, at least in our studies.
    Much has been made of the "newer better" JHP bullet designs and constructions, and these things are certainly better than no improvement at all. But while expansion may be more likely than in the past, it is far from a certainty. By the time that a bullet has been constructed to reliably expand on soft tissue, it has been rendered incapable of penetrating a windshield, cardoor, belt buckle, pocket notebook, cell phone, or, yes, even sheet rock.
    The notion that 200 f/s more velocity makes all expanding bullets better may seem to hold merit until it is tested in gelatin and wetpack. 17% more velocity and 36% more k.e., if it increases the probability of expansion, must also necessarily elevate the hazard of over-penetration. The correlation of expansion probability with velocity is FAR from linear. 17% more velocity does not mean that expansion is 17% more likely. In fact, MY mathematics/statistics training (up through and including differential equations and statistics using equations with third power or higher exponents) suggests that the probability of expansion increases along roughly a "square root" curve.
    A 'pulled out the air" example would be a bullet that expands (lets say that expansion means a 5% increase in diameter) 50% of the time at 1000 f/s will expand 55% of the time at 1210 f/s (1.1 times the probability for 1.1x1.1 the velocity). Increasing the velocity to 1440 f/s (1.2x1.2) would likely increase expansion frequency by 60% (50%x1.2), and so on. I'd be happy to be proven empirically, or even mathematically, that what I say is not the case, but I'm not holding my breath.
    It would take a lot of bullets, but trying this in a .38/.357 with velocities from 1000 to 1450 f/s might give rise to some interesting results, even if I do not have this right.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  7. #27
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    I am intrigued by the seemingly morbid concern for over penetration from the .38 Super, when there seems to have been far less concern about it, when the 4" barreled .357 Magnum revolver was the sidearm of a large majority of uniformed peace officers in the 60s, 70s and 80s. If a 140-160 gr. LSWC/JSP/JHP launched at 1200 + 50 f/s from a .38 Super is now a great hazard for over-penetration, then why was/is not the same weight/configuration of bullet, launched at 1400 + 50 f/s from a .357 magnum somehow LESS of a concern?......
    Overpenetration in civilian self-defense might mean you kill or injure someone you love. Overpenetration in a Law Enforcement application only increases the likelihood of collateral damage. Also, Law Enforcement might need the ability for a handgun to disable an automobile or shoot thru auto glass. Not a common civilian self-defense situation.

    Overpenetration when hunting is no big deal, exit wounds are not a bad thing. One bullet is not going to be best for every application.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  9. #29
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    Most LE use of the .357 were with 125s...they expended all or most of the energy inside the target...

  10. #30
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    Over-penetration is really only a liability issue if you can already guarantee 100% hits on the badguy. Even then, it’s questionable. If you miss the badguy (which happens a LOT in real life shootings), full-power bullets, unimpeded by passing through the badguy, are flying past him into the background. Nobody includes the liability from those bullets in these types of discussions…. My thought is, if my bullet passes through, it is going to be at 50% or less power, probably MUCH less, and therefore is not that dangerous.

    And, ultimately, if it is a legitimate self-defense shoot, it’s the badguy who owns the liability for anyone’s injuries or damages.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check