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Thread: Question for electricians; solar panel use w/o batteries

  1. #21
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    Interesting thread - I'll be following along. Yes, with your solar panels tied to the power grid you've got to have a way to disconnect from power grid when power goes down so the solar panels don't back feed to power grid.

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy Big Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryB View Post
    Yes there is! Called a hybrid inverter that does grid tie and charges batteries. When the grid goes down it draws off battery power. 100% legal.
    Yes, it will switch to the batteries, but it will not utilize any of the solar panels until grid power is back - not even to charge the batteries. The batteries in that case operate via a switch, just like an external generator - grid power is cut off and some or all of the house will be powered directly from that source.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Tom View Post
    Yes, it will switch to the batteries, but it will not utilize any of the solar panels until grid power is back - not even to charge the batteries. The batteries in that case operate via a switch, just like an external generator - grid power is cut off and some or all of the house will be powered directly from that source.
    Please provide data source for this statement.

    The purpose of a hybrid inverter is to create an "island". A stand alone system that utilizes the solar panels and batteries if present to provide power to the home and isolate the "island" from the grid.

    Enphase is just one company that can provide the necessary equipment. See Enphase Sunlight Backup for example.

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy Big Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paper Puncher View Post
    Please provide data source for this statement.

    The purpose of a hybrid inverter is to create an "island". A stand alone system that utilizes the solar panels and batteries if present to provide power to the home and isolate the "island" from the grid.

    Enphase is just one company that can provide the necessary equipment. See Enphase Sunlight Backup for example.
    Well, that is the only input I got from all solar installers, manufacturers and master electricians I contacted before getting our system installed - there seems to be no way to disconnect from the grid and still use the solar panels when grid power goes off. The inverters attached to the panels will get shut down in case the grid power is being detected down (it is an all Enphase based). If you know of any (grid tied) system that works when the grid power is down, please let me know! I may have missed something, but exhausted my sources when looking for a solution.

    My understanding is the "island" is solely the battery power, that is set up like a generator and once the battery is drained, there is no other source.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    US Energy Information Administration, https://www.eia.gov/
    I also know the guys in Texas, the largest power producing state in the country, and they report 30%+.

    So same question to you, where do you get “no state tops 4%”?
    I just looked it up. California shows 3.9%. Let me find the link
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Tom View Post
    Well, that is the only input I got from all solar installers, manufacturers and master electricians I contacted before getting our system installed - there seems to be no way to disconnect from the grid and still use the solar panels when grid power goes off. The inverters attached to the panels will get shut down in case the grid power is being detected down (it is an all Enphase based). If you know of any (grid tied) system that works when the grid power is down, please let me know! I may have missed something, but exhausted my sources when looking for a solution.

    My understanding is the "island" is solely the battery power, that is set up like a generator and once the battery is drained, there is no other source.
    I asked my wife about her distribution center which includes industrial sized freezers for food distribution. She confirmed that her generators automatically come on if power is out and shut off when it is restored. Heck, her parents have a whole house Generac that runs the radiant radiant floor heat if the power goes out. Auto on and off. I don't understand why solar is different?
    I am legitimately curious about this.
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  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy Big Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonp View Post
    I asked my wife about her distribution center which includes industrial sized freezers for food distribution. She confirmed that her generators automatically come on if power is out and shut off when it is restored. Heck, her parents have a whole house Generac that runs the radiant radiant floor heat if the power goes out. Auto on and off. I don't understand why solar is different?
    I am legitimately curious about this.
    Same here - I was certain that there was a simple switch to just disconnect the grid to protect the workers and continue to use the panel power, just like for a generator, but there does not seem to be a solution.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Tom View Post
    Yes, it will switch to the batteries, but it will not utilize any of the solar panels until grid power is back - not even to charge the batteries. The batteries in that case operate via a switch, just like an external generator - grid power is cut off and some or all of the house will be powered directly from that source.
    Yes it will use the solar panels, it is designed just for that purpose. Solar charges batteries, when bats are full it dumps power on the grid. Grid goes down it drops back to off grid mode and draws power from the bats. This capability has been around for a LONG time. Some inverters use a separate charge controller to charge the bats then the inverter handles the grid tie/off grid needs separately.

    I have been doing solar for YEARS... and as long as the inverter is UL listed for grid tie it is legal.

    Half my panels, my system is off grid only, I use transfer switches that automatically switch back to grid of battery voltage reaches a certain level... my system is very much not standard and was designed for my purposes to deal with 30+ power outages a year... Solar runs the freezers, fridge, and pellet stove in winter, my ham radio stuff also, and I can use the TV if I want...

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  9. #29
    Boolit Buddy Big Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryB View Post
    Yes it will use the solar panels, it is designed just for that purpose. Solar charges batteries, when bats are full it dumps power on the grid. Grid goes down it drops back to off grid mode and draws power from the bats. This capability has been around for a LONG time. Some inverters use a separate charge controller to charge the bats then the inverter handles the grid tie/off grid needs separately.

    I have been doing solar for YEARS... and as long as the inverter is UL listed for grid tie it is legal.

    Half my panels, my system is off grid only, I use transfer switches that automatically switch back to grid of battery voltage reaches a certain level... my system is very much not standard and was designed for my purposes to deal with 30+ power outages a year... Solar runs the freezers, fridge, and pellet stove in winter, my ham radio stuff also, and I can use the TV if I want...

    Yes, I am not questioning that when the grid goes out, it can switch to and use the batteries just fine. However, I am not aware of any solution that in that case would charge the batteries from the panels or, if one does not have batteries, simply switch to the panels only (when the grid is down).
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  10. #30
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    Larry,

    With 76 panels, which seems like a lot to me, how much (approx) do you get from the power company each month? How long is the payback for installing the system? It seems like you are a mini power station!

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonp View Post
    I just looked it up. California shows 3.9%. Let me find the link
    Nationally it’s lower than TX for sure. I wonder if you’re thinking of the percentages from something like what’s at the bottom of (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/...-of-energy.php) which includes all energy uses.

    I haven’t tried to look at the sources behind this, but it shows CA at 34%. They may be including hydro, probably are. https://www.fool.com/research/renewa...ergy-by-state/

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    Nationally it’s lower than TX for sure. I wonder if you’re thinking of the percentages from something like what’s at the bottom of (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/...-of-energy.php) which includes all energy uses.

    I haven’t tried to look at the sources behind this, but it shows CA at 34%. They may be including hydro, probably are. https://www.fool.com/research/renewa...ergy-by-state/
    No, I found a site from June of this year that listed states by percentage. Not an off the wall crazy site either
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Tom View Post
    Yes, I am not questioning that when the grid goes out, it can switch to and use the batteries just fine. However, I am not aware of any solution that in that case would charge the batteries from the panels or, if one does not have batteries, simply switch to the panels only (when the grid is down).
    There are MANY hybrid inverters capable of this... Outbacker is one brand that requires an outboard charge controller(my preferred method...)

  14. #34
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    Larry - I live in AZ also, as you know, and have SRP as our supplier. We have had full solar (8+KW) for 5 years now. We have 2 heatpumps, VFD pool pump, hi-efficiency dishwaher, washer, LED bulbs almost everywhere. I love it! Our elecgric bill (averaged) went from $400/month summer to <$60 summer with solar. In the winter we make lots more power than we need so SRP pays me for it....not much.....but it is better than having an electric bill for 6 months out of the year! We have a large 3,500+ sqft 2 story house.

    Now to your question - SRP does not allow a customer to run their solar panels and converter off-grid. The converter needs 220 vac to run. I have looked into and designed roughly a system that would be self-starting off a small gas generator to feed the "grid simulated" 220 vac into the converter during power outages. Once the generator has taken over, then the 220vac would come from the solar system itself......kind of self-sustaining.....and the generator would no longer be needed.

    I have looked into a "battery wall" and right now it would run over $30K for my needs and usage. Totally not worth it. Mabe some day when Elon get Li batteries down in price or developes an new technology. Remember......you have to replace those batteries about ever 10 years! Lots of "cost of ownership " in the longrun.

    Good luck on your quest. I am fat, dub, and happy with my daytime only solar generation source and the tons of money I am saving!

    bangerjim

  15. #35
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    this is an interesting thread. I will be following it.
    I'm glad bangerjim commented with his expertise and knowledge of AZ rules.
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  16. #36
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    Here's the deal, I'm not interested in "living off the grid". My interest is if the grid should go down for whatever reason for more than a day I would like to power my house during the day with the solar panels. At night only necessary electrical power can be supplied short term by a generator. Full power to the house would not be needed at night under such emergency conditions.

    I have 3,400 square feet in my house. It and the pool/spa are all electric. I have 3 heat pumps for the house and 1 for the spa/pool which would not be used during the emergency except the water can be used if needed for toilet (I have a septic tank) and washing. The panels I have supply sufficient power during the day and then some. The surplus power is fed back into the grid. Before I got the solar panels, I was paying $450 to almost $600 per month for electricity. The 25 year contract for the 76 panels [there are two inverters in the system] runs me $407 per month (1 1/2% interest). Thus, my monthly bill is now $50 to $200 less per month and won't go up with any electric bill increases. Here in AZ, I'm getting a credit every month since the system went online. In 34 months, I have accumulated $3,685 in credit. Thus, I am happy living "on the grid" and do not perceive any reason to disconnect unless the grid goes down for an extended time of a day or more.

    It is only in an emergency of some length of time do I want to disconnect from the grid and use the solar panels and a generator. It is perfectly legal here to disconnect from the grid when it goes down to run off a generator. I don't see I cannot disconnect from the grid to run of a generator and the solar panels. That is my conundrum.

    I am not interested in batteries as the expense and upkeep is not or should not be warrented for my application.
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 10-07-2024 at 01:13 PM.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bangerjim View Post

    Now to your question - SRP does not allow a customer to run their solar panels and converter off-grid. The converter needs 220 vac to run. I have looked into and designed roughly a system that would be self-starting off a small gas generator to feed the "grid simulated" 220 vac into the converter during power outages. Once the generator has taken over, then the 220vac would come from the solar system itself......kind of self-sustaining.....and the generator would no longer be needed.

    Good luck on your quest. I am fat, dub, and happy with my daytime only solar generation source and the tons of money I am saving!

    bangerjim
    I too am fat, dumb and happy with my solar system! I am interested in your system as I would also be using the generator part time. If the generator can be used to "jump start" (so to speak) the solar into working that would seem to be a good way? If you can share you idea please let me know.
    Larry Gibson

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  18. #38
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    what you want to do can be done but must be done by an experienced professional. i have several small systems that use panels and a special inverter that feeds 120 volts to an outlet as long as the panels are producing the proper voltage, it will not work until it senses proper voltage and cuts off when voltage is gone, what you have to contend with is watts, your system produces lots of watts and you will need separate ways to isolate from your house to your emergency. my pasture well the inverter/converter is the size of a cigar box, panels feed it and it feeds well pump, as soon as it sees proper current it starts pumping water and continues until dark. you will need a considerable outlay for the equipment, enough so that it may not be worth it. maybe a whole house generator would serve your purpose better and be cheaper
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  19. #39
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    Larry,

    Thank you for the explanation. Your system has more panels than I have seen other people use.

  20. #40
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    The issue that you guys are missing is that when the grid is up and your solar panels are grid tied, your house either uses more or less power than the solar provides. If less is used, solar feeds back into the grid, if you use more, then grid feeds into house. There is NO WAY for the system to be used off grid when the power goes down. The system HAS to shut off when grid goes down as IT WILL FEED BACK into grid. Even if batteries are included... solar WILL BE SHUT OFF.

    You are confusing generator transfer switches which only switch between generator and grid. There is NO backfeed into the grid by generator.


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