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Thread: Question for electricians; solar panel use w/o batteries

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    Question for electricians; solar panel use w/o batteries

    I have 76 solar panels which powers my entire house which is all electric. It is connected to the grid. I've put power back into the grid since the panels were up and running.

    I understand if the grid goes down so does the use of my panels. I also understand I should be able to shut of connection to grid and still use the power from my panels during the daytime w/o having batteries. I'm not an electrician and find everything on the internet either doesn't apply or is confusing. They say I'd need a DC to DC inverter. I already have two inverters that I though were DC to AC feeding the 240 volts back into the electric panel. Question is; If the grid goes down long term, I want to be able to still use the power from my panels during the day. How is that done and what is needed to make it possible?

    I would hire an electrician btw.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    try searching posts at "diy solar power forum" its run by a youtuber that does videos about solar projects but the forum has a lot of knowledgeable members and a few asshats, so have thick skin.

    the only way to legally do what you want to do, is hiring a certified solar electrician that can put a transfer switch in line before it goes to your grid tie unit, then you can flip the switch and use your panels as you see fit and not worry about killing a lineman working on grid stuff.

    you would need to figure your incoming max voltage and get an inverter that can handle said voltage, then you could plug in stuff as needed.

    might be far cheeper to buy a few panels and lay them out when needed. you can get a small dc to ac inverter from amazon and run small things as needed
    if you are ever being chased by a taxidermist, don't play dead

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Most homes are powered by 240 AC with a center tap to get 2 120 vac lines, one to each side of the panel. You have 240vac inverters, need a cross-over switch to connect to your house and disconnect from the power line 240 vac line. Similar to those used by backup gen system.
    Whatever!

  4. #4
    Boolit Master



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    If you have solar panels that were installed without batteries, like one of my friends did, then it is likely they cannot work with batteries. That makes them non-standard. So most people will not be able to advise you.

    I would recommend you contact Solar Power companies in your area and request they look at your system and decide what options you have to upgrade or alter your system to something you consider suitable and costs for each option.
    Note: If they want to be paid to look at your system and make the recommendations, then they are not the ones you need.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Handloader109's Avatar
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    You CANNOT legally be grid tied and then run off of the solar when power is down. Every electric power company restricts this because of backfeed. There is some allowance to have a single 120v circuit powered by solar that is separated by an automatic switch. If you are grid tied, you have to abide by the PC rules or they can shut you down.

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    Boolit Master Handloader109's Avatar
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    Oh, and this is one reason I'm not investing in solar. Second is Arkansas passed rule last year that reduces the payment of excess to 4 cents from roughly 11. Payoff would go to well over a decade.

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    Boolit Master gc45's Avatar
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    As an elect engr myself, good luck to those having or wanting solar or wind energy.

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    Switch to move solar panels to a charge controller(inverters want a certain input voltage, exceed it and it fries, go under and it shuts down), bite the bullet and get some batteries... then a 240 volt output inverter...

    Or replace your grid tie inverter with a hybrid that handles battery charging and swap over on grid failure. Again add batteries... if you are going to the expense batteries give you power at night during a grid down scenario. My neighbor across the street asked why I had such bright lights and TV during the last outage... solar, 936 amp hour battery bank, inverters(I run multiple but my system is tailored to my needs and is 100% off grid, grid tie has to many hoops and expenses in MN).

  9. #9
    Boolit Master schutzen-jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc45 View Post
    As an elect engr myself, good luck to those having or wanting solar or wind energy.
    totally agree ! -
    never pick a fight with an old man - if he is too old to fight he will just kill you -
    in this current crisis our government is not the solution , it is the problem ! -

    ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM

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  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc45 View Post
    As an elect engr myself, good luck to those having or wanting solar or wind energy.
    I don’t understand your point. More than a quarter of total power consumption in some states is provided by wind and solar. Rooftop solar may not be cost effective in a particular area, but it does work. What are you hinting at?

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    I don’t understand your point. More than a quarter of total power consumption in some states is provided by wind and solar. Rooftop solar may not be cost effective in a particular area, but it does work. What are you hinting at?
    No state tops 4%. Where do you get the "more than a quarter" from?
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  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    I don’t understand your point. More than a quarter of total power consumption in some states is provided by wind and solar. Rooftop solar may not be cost effective in a particular area, but it does work. What are you hinting at?
    the only thing it works for is the power company, you can not use it and you get a very very small pittance for producing it but pay 5 times more when you need to buy it

    i like solar but would never do grid tie, mine is stand alone and it offsets my grid power 100 percent so i actually get paid what the power is worth( i power my freezers and fridge)
    if you are ever being chased by a taxidermist, don't play dead

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy Big Tom's Avatar
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    Agree with Handloader109 - there is no legal way to switch off grid and only run on panels or to run on panels during a grid power outage.

    We have solar on the roof, and feed unused capacity back into the grid and can use it from the grid whenever needed (kind of a virtual storage place). It is called net metering and it works 1:1 (1 kwh fed in, i kwh can be taken out at no cost). Fortunately, our power grid is pretty stable, but during grid outages, I still need to get my generator started - stupid, but there seems to be no reliable, automatic switch, that disconnects the grid in case the grid power is down.

    I like the (mostly) independence from electricity suppliers and their price adjustments and with two electric vehicles, I can charge these in case the grid gets overloaded in a few years dur to too many people charging cars...
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  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I went down the solar path a few years ago and could not get the numbers to work. Break even after all the rebates and tax credits was 15 years and that assumed no issues with the solar system. Now, 12 years later, the numbers still do not work. But I have affordable power - $.13 kw-hr.

    For power outages, I went with a whole house generator about five years ago. Cost was $6000. I added another 500 gal propane tank that I rent for $54/yr. I can cycle the generator during a SHTF event and get about two months out of it by running 4-5 hours a day.

    If power is out for more than 2 months, I am up the creek.

    The payback depends on local conditions so I understand solar will work for many folks. But it is like EVs...not a solution for everyone. It is important to think about why you are doing it. SHTF, power disruptions, saving money, being independent....whatever.
    Don Verna


  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master

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    but there seems to be no reliable, automatic switch, that disconnects the grid in case the grid power is down.

    I am a little curious about this. I don't have a whole house generator or a solar/wind setup but many stores, hospitals, distribution centers etc have automatic generators that immediately cut in when the grid goes down and shut off when it comes back up. I've seen many online solar setups that do the same thing with batteries. Is there something I'm missing? You would need batteries to control the charge being used but it wouldn't be that expensive to wire in. I saw one guy that ordered a do it yourself battery pack.
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  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    If you can have a transfer switch that works for a generator to cut out the grid then why would it be any different to have the same or similar transfer switch for a battery solar power setup? A transfer switch is a transfer switch, it transfers the power input and cuts the grid circuit out.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonp View Post
    No state tops 4%. Where do you get the "more than a quarter" from?
    US Energy Information Administration, https://www.eia.gov/
    I also know the guys in Texas, the largest power producing state in the country, and they report 30%+.

    So same question to you, where do you get “no state tops 4%”?

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by rancher1913 View Post
    the only thing it works for is the power company, you can not use it and you get a very very small pittance for producing it but pay 5 times more when you need to buy it

    i like solar but would never do grid tie, mine is stand alone and it offsets my grid power 100 percent so i actually get paid what the power is worth( i power my freezers and fridge)
    Sorry, I’m having a little difficulty understanding you. When you say “the only thing it works for is the power company” you mean grid tie and not solar power in general, right? And for your solar setup when you say “I actually get paid what the power is worth” you mean that you don’t get paid at all, but that you’ve reduced your electric bill to zero by producing all the electricity you need, right? Do you have batteries for storage?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I went down the solar path a few years ago and could not get the numbers to work. Break even after all the rebates and tax credits was 15 years and that assumed no issues with the solar system. Now, 12 years later, the numbers still do not work. But I have affordable power - $.13 kw-hr.

    For power outages, I went with a whole house generator about five years ago. Cost was $6000. I added another 500 gal propane tank that I rent for $54/yr. I can cycle the generator during a SHTF event and get about two months out of it by running 4-5 hours a day.

    If power is out for more than 2 months, I am up the creek.

    The payback depends on local conditions so I understand solar will work for many folks. But it is like EVs...not a solution for everyone. It is important to think about why you are doing it. SHTF, power disruptions, saving money, being independent....whatever.
    Don, I have been looking at solar for our place. Panels will be on the ground and system needs to work with my Generac whole house generator that has its own 500 gallon propane tank. I want batteries to cover for several days. I will not be tied to the grid after the first few months (testing to make sure things work as anticipated). Hopefully looking in the spring to start this, but everything is dependent on my latest back surgery. If I can't do the work then we won't bother. Payback will probably be around the 10 year mark but we feel it is worth it to be basically energy independent. Being rural there are times when it takes days for power to be restored. Figure if there is a natural disaster or a man-made one, we would still have power. Getting to old to worry about some things.
    Ron

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Tom View Post
    Agree with Handloader109 - there is no legal way to switch off grid and only run on panels or to run on panels during a grid power outage.

    We have solar on the roof, and feed unused capacity back into the grid and can use it from the grid whenever needed (kind of a virtual storage place). It is called net metering and it works 1:1 (1 kwh fed in, i kwh can be taken out at no cost). Fortunately, our power grid is pretty stable, but during grid outages, I still need to get my generator started - stupid, but there seems to be no reliable, automatic switch, that disconnects the grid in case the grid power is down.

    I like the (mostly) independence from electricity suppliers and their price adjustments and with two electric vehicles, I can charge these in case the grid gets overloaded in a few years dur to too many people charging cars...
    Yes there is! Called a hybrid inverter that does grid tie and charges batteries. When the grid goes down it draws off battery power. 100% legal.

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