Neck sizing for 45-70 PP BP cartridge: question.

[piwo]

Yet to begin reloading for 45-70 gov: reading books and many many forum threads. My intention is to paper patch using BP, which means I’ll be patching to Bore. My CerroSafe arrives on Friday so I can get a good chamber cast and proper dimensions. Which brings me to sizing. I’d prefer not to full length resize, and so my question. What are you using to size your brass if NOT full length resizing?

I need to get my chamber cast dimensions before I decide what to do brass wise. I have 40 Hornady factory Ammo once fired brass, but if it’s too short for the chamber I may buy 45-90 brass and trim it to absolute chamber length. The brass chosen will obviously determine how much the neck needs to be sized

Those necksizing 45-70 gov, what are you using. I’m not a machinist and cannot make my own custom dies.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated. Cheers!
John

[Don McDowell]

The chamber on your rifle will make a big part of what you need do for resizing
In my Shiloh I full length resize chamfer the case mouth and seat a .446 diameter bullet wet wrapped in Seth Cole 55y paper

[Lead pot]

John keep it simple.
Your bore will most likely be .450"+- 1/2 thousands. When that powder charge is lit that bullet will expand filling the .004" +- groove depth.
If you want to put a taper on the case mouth for a patched to bore diameter PP use a taper crimp die. Stay away from using a roll crimp.
Better yet, get a DDEPP from BA like the link below and you don't need a crimp or if the chamber is large maybe a very light crimp if you want a snug fit in the case mouth.
The length of that DD base can be adjusted to match any freebore your chamber might have. This .152" this mould has will work well with a chamber with 0 or .050" freebore. If you have a funnel type or cylinder freebore a little longer DD is an option.
I have a rifle with a .110" deep cylinder freebore and I use a DD base PP that has a .350" long DD and it shoots very good.
Clean that fired case and reload. You will most likely never use a crimp die.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/454-520-...im454520e.html

[piwo]

The chamber on your rifle will make a big part of what you need do for resizing
In my Shiloh I full length resize chamfer the case mouth and seat a .446 diameter bullet wet wrapped in Seth Cole 55y paper

I previously had bought some Buffalo Arms 9lb Patching paper, and two wraps equals .006-.007”. you say 2wraps of the Seth Cole 55Y leaves you a bore riding patched bullet w a .446? You have a .450/.4505 bore? Hate buying a 100 pieces on a chance, but so many folks use it I guess it’s worth the shot!
Thanks

[piwo]

John keep it simple.


https://www.buffaloarms.com/454-520-...im454520e.html

Well, I do like to keep things simple! Do you actually cast that particular boolit, or just the other one you referenced? I looked at their website and while the sell some of the boolits that they also sell moulds for, they don’t sell any of those would be nice to kick the tires on a few before dropping a couple C notes….

Thanks for all the information and thoughts

[mike salyards]

You may want to sell that Hornady brass, its too short. just grab a bag of Starline or RP and you will be fine. Are you shooting a Shiloh? if so just do like Don said. Make sure you anneal your brass first. I have several good loads Ive gotten from Bill Bagwell before he passed and others if you need a starting point.

[piwo]

You may want to sell that Hornady brass, its too short. just grab a bag of Starline or RP and you will be fine. Are you shooting a Shiloh? if so just do like Don said. Make sure you anneal your brass first. I have several good loads Ive gotten from Bill Bagwell before he passed and others if you need a starting point.

Shooting a Pedersoli Rolling Block long range Creedmoor. I suspect those Sharps loads might not translate to the Pedersoli? Quite anxious to do the CerroSafe cast to see what I have going on there. They Make Starline Brass not 2 hours from my home… I’ll probably buy those to “support local”!

Thanks for the suggestions!
John

[country gent]

Most standard dies wont size brass down far enough for bore riding bullets. Wrapped bullet dia is .450 while most dies are set up for .457 bullets. I use a bushing die from old west moulds to size 45 90 45 70 and 40-65. Same die body just different bushings.
Seating difference can be quite a bit different on the bore riders. My powder/was stack leaves the bullet only .125-.180 in the case, since the bullet can seat into the throat rifling. ( think of it a a breech seating.

I have used both the buffalo arms paper and the seth cole. the buffalo arms is a sheet 8 1/2 x 11 while the seth cole is a roll. I believe my brooks mould drops at .443 with 20-1 alloy. The seth cole works well with this.

I also wrap with out a tail. my patched bullets have a small circle of lead showing on the base in the center. The tension you wrap with will affect dia as the paper will stretch and thin. damp paper will also stretch more than dry.

[Don McDowell]

Shooting a Pedersoli Rolling Block long range Creedmoor. I suspect those Sharps loads might not translate to the Pedersoli? Quite anxious to do the CerroSafe cast to see what I have going on there. They Make Starline Brass not 2 hours from my home… I’ll probably buy those to “support local”!

Thanks for the suggestions!
John

Might want to do a chamber cast on that rifle, if it has the long and large diameter throat, the dual diameter bullet will likely be your best bet. And it's possible that you very well might need to trim 45-90 brass to length.
I don't care much for the 9 lb paper with the exception of building hunting loads for my Italian rifle. I've found that with the 9 lb paper unexplained dirt diggers are to common at long range.
I use the Hornady component brass in my Shiloh and Browning, but if you have the leverevultion brass it may very well deal you fits in that Pedersoli.

[piwo]

Might want to do a chamber cast on that rifle, if it has the long and large diameter throat, the dual diameter bullet will likely be your best bet. And it's possible that you very well might need to trim 45-90 brass to length.
I don't care much for the 9 lb paper with the exception of building hunting loads for my Italian rifle. I've found that with the 9 lb paper unexplained dirt diggers are to common at long range.
I use the Hornady component brass in my Shiloh and Browning, but if you have the leverevultion brass it may very well deal you fits in that Pedersoli.

Yes, waiting for delivery of the CerroSafe to do the cast. There are two 45-90 cases that I’ve seen: 45-90 wcf, and 45-90 2.4 and I saw where someone said you might need to “thin” the case mouth brass. You know if that’s true? Which brass would be better to use. I read the 45-90 wcf was for high speed lighter bullets and that’s not what I will be shooting…

[Lead pot]

Well, I do like to keep things simple! Do you actually cast that particular boolit, or just the other one you referenced? I looked at their website and while the sell some of the boolits that they also sell moulds for, they don’t sell any of those would be nice to kick the tires on a few before dropping a couple C notes….

Thanks for all the information and thoughts

John,

No that link is just for reference, but I do have DD moulds for the .38-50 Hep, .44-77, and a .45. The .44's and .45 I converted straight shank moulds myself to a DD. The .38-50 I have 2 BA moulds one is a .371-360 https://www.buffaloarms.com/371-360-...im371359e.html and the other is a 371-345 https://www.buffaloarms.com/371-345-...im371345e.html

The 371-360 is for the chamber that has .100" freebore. They all shoot very well. Kinda hard to argue about groups they put through paper working up loads when you see the close results with these ladder loads.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

For the most part the 45-90 winchester and the 45 2.4 are one and the same
You may find after the chamber cast that case length needs to be 2.25 that’s only .15 short of the 2.4 case
I have not had to thin the case necks on any

[piwo]

For the most part the 45-90 winchester and the 45 2.4 are one and the same
You may find after the chamber cast that case length needs to be 2.25 that’s only .15 short of the 2.4 case
I have not had to thin the case necks on any

Thank you, most helpful. Have you experienced the cases “shrinking” upon firing? A thread I read someone discussed this saying they had the cases trimmed to exact chamber length and upon firing were now short again and needed to be “stretched”. Made it sound like a circular game one couldn’t win unless they stretched their cases. I know bottleneck cases stretch when full length resized, was hoping not to need to do this, especially if I use an elliptical dual dimension bullet.so many imponderables…..

[piwo]

Kurt, those are some fine looking targets indeed! I only asked about whether you had that mould because I was gonna see if I could do some trading or something to get a handful for experimenting before buying an expensive mould…cool making your own DD Mould: I lack the tools and talents for such an endeavor.

[Don McDowell]

I wouldn't worry much about cases shrinking. If they stretch there's a good chance the bullet will pull the case into the rifling and give you a case separation.

[piwo]

I got my .441 slicks yesterday and when patching w BACO 9lb paper the final dimension was.447. Would have needed a rubber mallet to pound the boolit into the muzzle. After some experimentation I found I need a patched boolit no larger than .4455, and that’s using strong thumb pressure to get the patched boolit to slide into the muzzle. I will either need a very thin paper, or a narrower boolit and thicker paper.

A few members here have posted paper brands and thicknesses and after reviewing those I ordered a small quantity of .0011 Lens paper from Peca Products to see if that would work. This paper was developed for the military to wet clean optics. Has anyone used such thin paper successfully or is that a waste of time?
Thoughts?

[Bent Ramrod]

I believe Pedersloi barrels have a bore that is tapered from breech to muzzle. Seat your patched boolit 1/8" into an empty shell and hold it there by either a section of wood dowel in the shell or by mouth reduction in a taper crimp or mouth reduction die. See if the cartridge seats by thumb pressure. The leade and the breech part of the bore should be slightly larger than at the muzzle.

What does your patch paper mike at? The pounds-per-ream "weight" value has never been much good as a thickness indicator, to me at least.

[piwo]

What does your patch paper mike at? The pounds-per-ream "weight" value has never been much good as a thickness indicator, to me at least.

The BACO 9lb mikes at .002 and they state it will add .006-.007: in my case it ads .006. That sounds counterintuitive since 4 layers of .002 would be .008, but that’s what it gives.

It’s my intention to acquire 45-90 brass and trim it so that it fills the chamber as well.

[Bent Ramrod]

I use tracing paper that mikes 0.0015”. The 2 thousandths “vellum” I have will sometimes stick in the leade with my 0.443” diameter boolit if it isn’t totally cleaned between shots.

I keep my .45-70 shells trimmed to 2.100”. For paper patch, I give the mouths a mild anneal after every firing.

[MichaelR]

PIWO
I shoot a DDPP bullets for hunting. The 3/16” wide band around the base is .444”, a 1/16” taper to .440” until the ogive. With thepapermill.com onion skin the base fits a .450” bore very nicely. I use RCBS sizing dies. All of my 45 caliber dies size the neck to hold the bullet very well. I shoot .45-2.1, .45-2.6”, .45-2 7/8”, and .45-31/4”. All of these dies work well to hold a bore diameter bullet. Email me and I can send a few bullets and a couple of sheets of paper. I full length size my brass for a few decades and I don’t remember splitting any case necks. .45-70 brass is fairly cheep, I wouldn’t give a second thought about FL sizing it. The longer cases are considerably more expensive but I’ve really haven’t had a problem. I also shoot three .40 different .40 calibers and they also fit bore diameter bullets when FL sized.