The .357 S&W Magnum as a Man-Stopper

[lar45]

The wife and I have been together for over 30 years and have never had a single fight.
Sometimes we have disagreements that we can discuss.
Sometimes we have to agree to disagree.

Why did Ranger Rick cast 700grain 500S&W bullets? Because S&W made the X-frame with a very long cylinder, and they are fun to shoot.
Are the 700 grain bullets really useful? I do not think so, but there are still casters selling 700 and 710 grain .501" bullets.
I have the original Ranger Rick 700gn mold in the shop. It doesn't get used very often, but shooting the 700s makes me smile
The John Ross 500S&W custom revolvers were made with a 1:10" twist barrel to stabilize the 700s.
That took a ton of effort and money to get S&W to make the limited run, and for what? Because this is an enjoyable hobby and thinking way outside the box can sometimes be entertaining.
I'm sure that some people have hunted with the 700s. If they had the 1:10 twist to stabilize the bullets, then penetration must have been great. I try to stick to 400 or 440s. I did have a 500gn mold made, but the Lee 440 is a really great design.

Now that I have wandered far enough off topic that some of you are probably wondering, what in the world is this guy even talking about???
I think that disagreements are going to happen in any group of individuals, but please let us be able to talk to each other.
This is a great community and I have enjoyed being a part of it for decades. It would really be a shame to loose this place.

[Recycled bullet]

I'm not a .357 fanboy. But just ought of curiosity: How much gel would you dare hide behind?

If somebody had the audacity to shoot at other people they had better understand that there will be consequences to their actions sometimes things that will be beyond their understanding like death. It's very stupid to ask how much gel would you dare to hide behind.

I do appreciate your thread and I both agree and disagree with some of the points and premises made. Part of having mature healthy adult conversation is being able to accept that other people have differences of opinion and that others have the right to be wrong. It is not my place to decide what is right or wrong for others, really only for myself, and if I can stimulate others into expanding their worldview then my job is done here.

Plus we all know that both World Wars was won by shoes and socks.

[pettypace]

If somebody had the audacity to shoot at other people they had better understand that there will be consequences to their actions sometimes things that will be beyond their understanding like death. It's very stupid to ask how much gel would you dare to hide behind.

I do appreciate your thread and I both agree and disagree with some of the points and premises made. Part of having mature healthy adult conversation is being able to accept that other people have differences of opinion and that others have the right to be wrong. It is not my place to decide what is right or wrong for others, really only for myself, and if I can stimulate others into expanding their worldview then my job is done here.

Plus we all know that both World Wars was won by shoes and socks.

I'm sorry my question was misinterpreted. I meant only to ask how sure he was that a 158 grain .38 caliber bullet at 500 f/s wouldn't penetrate 20 inches of gelatin. Perhaps I should have said that I wouldn't feel safe hiding behind 20 inches of gelatin. I apologize for not making that more clear.

[jdgabbard]

So a couple of things from my recollections...

One, I do have some load data for the Ranch Dog 190gr in 357mag. I've used 2400 and 4227. I can dig the data out, if you want it. Botton line, I find it to be a little "less" than loads with the 170gr Keith or the 358156. It just doesn't have the same umph to it. It might tumble, and cause serious damage like the 38spl Super Police loads. But I haven't tested that, and can only go on my target shooting experiences with it.

As for the 357mag 125gr HP loads. I am still a supporter of these loads. I grew up in the Legal and Law Enforcement community. I have personally seen scene photos from a suspect shot in the throat with a 125gr load. And I tell you that whatever you want to call it (hydrostatic shock, temporary wound cavity, etc) is a very real thing. The photos I saw showed it literally popped the eyeballs out of their sockets from a shot placed to the throat at 25ft. Granted, in my experience, shot placement, and penetration is much more important. But if you accurately place that 125gr shot to a vital area, that load will absolutely perform in ways that you're not going to get from a 38spl, 9mm, 40s&w, or 45acp. You might get similar performance from a lightweight 10mm load. I don't know, I don't own a 10mm. But I will tell you with certainty that the evidence I have seen is that it is a better performer.

With that out of the way, you have to remember why people made the switch over to the 9mm, 40s&w and 45acp. Lots of talk about FBI testing and the like. But the big reason was due to some of the shootouts in the 90s. Officers found themselves in positions where they needed to up their kit, and high capacity autoloaders were better suited for the modern realities they faced. I don't care what any Frappuccino drinking gun writer yuppie is going to write in the current joke of a gun magazine or website. The proof is in the pudding. And when you see what bullets do to tissue it becomes very clear that some loads are better at downing a person that others. But as I said before, there are other considerations to think about. Yeah, most shootouts might still be 7-21ft with 3-5 shots fired. But that isn't the reality that police officers face. Capacity is just as important in that profession as potential. They need something that can meet both criteria.

That is the REAL question about the lethality of the 357 magnum. Is it lethal, sure. Is it practical in today's modern world? That is the million dollar question. I say it does have a niche place in the tool kit. But it shouldn't be the only tool you have, or train with.

[pettypace]

Here's Fackler's wound profile for that 125 grain load:



The calculated "Defense Wound Mass" for that is 59 grams which puts it in the same league as the best .45 ACP JHPs.

[jdgabbard]

Here's Fackler's wound profile for that 125 grain load:



The calculated "Defense Wound Mass" for that is 59 grams which puts it in the same league as the best .45 ACP JHPs.

One thing we should also consider would probably differences in bullet construction between some of those older loads and the newer ones. My understanding is the newer designs have better expansion and retention. But those old soft nose hollow points did do the job well.

[lar45]

Back in the early 90s I got a Class 1 and 3 FFL?, Dealer and Ammo Manufacturer.
Anyway, a Friend and I thought we would load ammo for sale. We ordered piles of supplies with the FFL discount...
For 357mag, we bought some 125JHP. I remember we tried some Hydro Shocks and another one that we could buy in Bulk boxes of 2000(memory's not working tonight on the brand).
Back then the loading manuals showed BlueDot with the 125s. Today they say to specifically not use BlueDot with the 125s in the 357mag.
We wanted top velocities, so we tried H110, 2400 and BlueDot. The BlueDot loads gave more velocity and less recoil than the H110 loads. My guess was less powder getting burned in the barrel. I think I read somewhere about rocket effect? Hot gasses leaving the barrel after the bullet exits...
Anyway, test platform was a 4" GP-100 and if my memory works tonight, we were getting just over 1600fps with a Max Book load of Blue Dot. H110 gave mid 1500ish. BlueDot worked great back then, did they have problems with guns blowing up with the 125s?

[atfsux]

Back in the early 90s I got a Class 1 and 3 FFL?, Dealer and Ammo Manufacturer.
Anyway, a Friend and I thought we would load ammo for sale. We ordered piles of supplies with the FFL discount...
For 357mag, we bought some 125JHP. I remember we tried some Hydro Shocks and another one that we could buy in Bulk boxes of 2000(memory's not working tonight on the brand).
Back then the loading manuals showed BlueDot with the 125s. Today they say to specifically not use BlueDot with the 125s in the 357mag.
We wanted top velocities, so we tried H110, 2400 and BlueDot. The BlueDot loads gave more velocity and less recoil than the H110 loads. My guess was less powder getting burned in the barrel. I think I read somewhere about rocket effect? Hot gasses leaving the barrel after the bullet exits...
Anyway, test platform was a 4" GP-100 and if my memory works tonight, we were getting just over 1600fps with a Max Book load of Blue Dot. H110 gave mid 1500ish. BlueDot worked great back then, did they have problems with guns blowing up with the 125s?

My prime powder for magnum ammo back then was also BlueDot. I liked it a lot,...except for that bright white miniature sun at the end of the barrel. I put up with it even though it was a flake powder and not a ball type. It burned clean and there was a lot less fouling and residue to clean up compared to other powders. But the reason I stopped using it was I had too many occasions during competition and training drills where unburned flakes would get under the ejector star in the cylinder, preventing the star from seating fully and thereby also preventing closing the cylinder, jamming the gun open in a manner that, when the chips are down, could cost you your life because you were unable to reload the weapon.

Definitely not something I'd want to experience in real life.

That experience also taught me the truth of the maxim that "2 is 1, and 1 is none". In other words, carry a back-up weapon.

[cainttype]

Penetration, enough to penetrate through vitals to spine from any angle… Instant incapacitation potential.
Permanent “Wound Channel”, more bigger=more gooder, if you want something more deader, more sooner…

These “low velocity” pure lead projectiles were fired at 700-715 fps from 2” 38 Spcl snub-nose revolvers.
They never fail to penetrate DEEP, expand very effectively, and never break apart at those velocities… so far (35+ years).

I think you’re simply dealing with a design issue in these tests, mainly the HP is not fragile enough at the meplat and not deep enough to allow the mushroom to easily continue into the shank length to get MASSIVE expansion while still retaining enough momentum to easily penetrate more than adequately for a non-armor clad adversary.

These recovered examples average about .7” very consistently through multiple mediums.

[jdgabbard]

BlueDot worked great back then, did they have problems with guns blowing up with the 125s?

I think a lot of the concern came with the 44s shooting lighter bullets. Then they recognized it was an issue with 357 as well.

There have always been concerns with using 125gr and lighter bullets in the 357mag. The BIG issue is cracked barrels on the K-Frames and top strap erosion on pretty much everything else. I've heard several theories as to why it happens, most settle on it has something to do with the bullet not getting into the rifling before it leaves the throat on the cylinder. Whatever the case, the smaller guns seem to have had more issues with it, such as K-Frames. While the larger ones, such as the GP100, seem to have done better.

So for my S&W 65 I've always ran with 158gr for most loads. My GP100 I run whatever I want in it. But I do keep some of the 125gr loads around. I haven't used Blue Dot much, I prefer 2400 as it has a few more uses for me. But I have heard it is a wonderful magnum powder.

[MT Gianni]

The BlueDot loads gave more velocity and less recoil than the H110 loads. My guess was less powder getting burned in the barrel. I think I read somewhere about rocket effect? Hot gasses leaving the barrel after the bullet exits...
Anyway, test platform was a 4" GP-100 and if my memory works tonight, we were getting just over 1600fps with a Max Book load of Blue Dot. H110 gave mid 1500ish. BlueDot worked great back then, did they have problems with guns blowing up with the 125s?

S&W K frames were know to have some crack, especially near the barrel flat. The commonality was ball powders and 110 and 125 gr jacketed bullets. It didn't seem to be an issue with longer bullets in which the noise had fully entered the forcing cone before the base exited the cylinder.